All-Star Crossovers And Sandbagging

[quitthedrama]

Exactly what I thought was going to happen indeed happened. Well turns out that not only are there level 5 athletes on a level 2 team but they also crossover to I believe level 3.... Our girls Hit 0 earlier today. Literally shaking and tears from everyone because we were amazed and how amazing there performance was. Well they lost to the other team of course but I give them respect because they only lost by .07 literally. Now I watched the other team and I'm amazed they scored so well when there should have bee a safety deduction throwing a shoe off the mat actually to the front of the mat during the routine. But whatever. The girls were shocked and it hurt to be so close but because some teams rather sandbag then play fair the true level 2 athletes get screwed. The win was ripped out of there hands. My poor cp who usually doesn't react was in tears hysterically crying. After this experience I can't wait to get home and begin my adventure in petitioning or requesting changes in the rules. If NCA doesn't allow it then no one should. That simple. Good night. I finally get to post so I'll post video of my caps team when I get home on the video thread lol I know it's just level 2 but I've never been so proud of her and her teammates!!!

Not that it changes the main point of your frustration, which is legitimate, but there is no safety deduction for removing a shoe from the competition mat.

 

[cheer25mom]

Not that it changes the main point of your frustration, which is legitimate, but there is safety deduction for removing a shoe from the competition mat.

I thought this was true, but I have seen it happen multiple times at a couple of different events this year and it was never deducted. Is it still a rule in the new scoring system?

 

[SarahS]

I thought this was true, but I have seen it happen multiple times at a couple of different events this year and it was never deducted. Is it still a rule in the new scoring system?

I think "NO" was accidentally missing from her response. There is NO safety deduction for removing a shoe from the performing surface. You may be deducted if an athlete begins the routine without shoes or intentionally takes shoes off of his or her feet in the middle of the routine, as full soled shoes are required per the general safety rules (gen rule 6 if anyone cares lol) but removing a shoe from the mat is actually smarter and safer than trying to perform on top of it, so therefore is not illegal.

 

[quitthedrama]

I think "NO" was accidentally missing from her response. There is NO safety deduction for removing a shoe from the performing surface. You may be deducted if an athlete begins the routine without shoes or intentionally takes shoes off of his or her feet in the middle of the routine, as full soled shoes are required per the general safety rules (gen rule 6 if anyone cares lol) but removing a shoe from the mat is actually smarter and safer than trying to perform on top of it, so therefore is not illegal.

Ahhh, need more coffee on this Monday morning! Yes, your interpreted my response correctly. It's been edited. Thank you!

 

[CheerDad18]

I think there is a difference between cross overs or ie Stacking, Sand bagging. What most people dislike is the latter. In my opinion Stacking happens for purely two reasons you have an owner/coach that believes you win at all costs or it's purely $$$. You have a program that is trying to get going maybe a smaller start up or a Mega program that believe wins translate into more athletes joining their program which makes them more $$$.

The Summit has it in their rules day 1 they will accomadate your cross overs. Day 2 the performance order is set by your ranking day 1. If you have teams that are performing in Jostens and the field house that have double teamers at roughly the same time your in trouble.

 

[TheDivineCheerYaYaSecret]

The whole crossover, sandbagging, stacking issue is so hard. I have been thinking a great deal about the topic this season. We started in a very small gym that would not have been able to field even one team given the new age restrictions. They simply wouldn't have been there. Forget about the skill level. There were about twenty nine athletes total from the ages of 8-16. They had enough bhs to have a majority and they competed as a S2. They did well. They were mainly doing good sized one day comps and they held their own at two day comps.
Now we are at a much larger gym (I don't know what classification they would really fall into) and there are many athletes of all ages and skills. We have crossovers but it isn't through the roof. Many people just aren't willing to pay for it. There are always instances of an athlete filling in due to illness or injury. For the most part the teams seem to be put together very well in terms of the skill set and without a crazy amount of crossovers. A team that is large this year may very well be small next year depending on the athletes that try out. Sometimes crossovers are needed to fill one or two positions. For example if you have two males that should be on a coed four but you really need four to be competitive in that division. My CP is crossing this year. She is a flyer on a SR5 and she is a side base on a Y4. She wanted to learn to base because she hopes to compete on a Worlds team one day and she knows she will keep growing (as she should) and may eventually be too large to continue flying. She knew that if she had to go from flying to basing at a higher level it would be a big learning curve if she hadn't based before. So when the opportunity came for her to base L4 she jumped on it.
I feel that our gym does a very good job of building their teams based on the talent they have. They seem to place athletes on the appropriate level. There are minimum tumbling requirements they use for each level but they are also building teams based on stunting, jumps, base, backspot, flyer, etc. Just because an athlete has a running tuck and two standing bhs that doesn't automatically place them on a L3 team. The coaches are looking for all of the necessary skills performed with good execution. Sometimes there is a need for an athlete in a stunting position that maybe isn't quite there yet on the tumbling. Maybe they are still working that full but are needed for stunting on the R5.
This season I have seen so many amazing teams on all levels. I have been feeling though that there is a new trend upon us that maybe everyone hasn't realized. Not anyone in particular but just sort of as a whole. Or maybe I am the one that is really late to the party. I have seen so many teams that really could be a higher level team but the gym is choosing to compete a level lower so the team is highly competitive. I don't know that I think that is stacking. Maybe, maybe not. I am not talking about a team that is competing two or more levels down based on the majority of the athletes. I am talking about a team that has a majority of layouts that are more piked than hollow that chooses to compete as a L3 because they know it, they own it, and they want to put a high technical quality team together.
I am now thinking that those gyms are the most forward thinking of them all. They obviously are aware of the score sheets and how to build the most competitive teams they have based on the skill set of their athlete pool. They clearly know their athletes' abilities and I think maybe they have the best understanding of how to put those abilities to work for the best advantage for the team. For whatever reason the coaches have basically made it clear to the Suzie's Moms and Dads that even though Suzie can chunk a janky (insert tumble skill of choice here) that doesn't make her a true level (insert corresponding level here) athlete. Does that make sense? If the parents don't like the philosophy they are welcome to go elsewhere. The coaches themselves also have to be very realistic about which levels their teams can truly be to remain competitive. I have met coaches that are every bit as delusional about the level teams they can truly field as Suzie's parents are about the level Suzie should truly be.
I feel like this creates an environment that nurtures a realistic expectation for everyone involved in the program in terms of what it takes to be successful and what the end goals are. Proper progression, great technique, confident athletes, trusting parents, strong level appropriate routines that are competitive in the competitions the gym attends. It seems that realistic expectations across the gym are one of the foundational keys for a strongly successful program. The parent/coach/athlete/gym owner delusions about what needs to happen and what should happen have to be dealt with. That isn't to say an athlete shouldn't work and hope to reach a team level of their dream or that a coach/owner shouldn't work and hope to build a team level of their dream. I think it means that those goals are not going to be reached if the plan to reach them is based on delusion and not reality. Strong structures are not built on shaky soil.
Personally I would much rather my CP be on a team where she (and everyone on her team) is strong in those level needed skills.

 

[TheVipersMom]

The whole crossover, sandbagging, stacking issue is so hard. I have been thinking a great deal about the topic this season. We started in a very small gym that would not have been able to field even one team given the new age restrictions. They simply wouldn't have been there. Forget about the skill level. There were about twenty nine athletes total from the ages of 8-16. They had enough bhs to have a majority and they competed as a S2. They did well. They were mainly doing good sized one day comps and they held their own at two day comps.
Now we are at a much larger gym (I don't know what classification they would really fall into) and there are many athletes of all ages and skills. We have crossovers but it isn't through the roof. Many people just aren't willing to pay for it. There are always instances of an athlete filling in due to illness or injury. For the most part the teams seem to be put together very well in terms of the skill set and without a crazy amount of crossovers. A team that is large this year may very well be small next year depending on the athletes that try out. Sometimes crossovers are needed to fill one or two positions. For example if you have two males that should be on a coed four but you really need four to be competitive in that division. My CP is crossing this year. She is a flyer on a SR5 and she is a side base on a Y4. She wanted to learn to base because she hopes to compete on a Worlds team one day and she knows she will keep growing (as she should) and may eventually be too large to continue flying. She knew that if she had to go from flying to basing at a higher level it would be a big learning curve if she hadn't based before. So when they opportunity came for her to base L4 she jumped on it.
I feel that our gym does a very good job of building their teams based on the talent they have. They seem to place athletes on the appropriate level. There are minimum tumbling requirements they use for each level but they are also building teams based on stunting, jumps, base, backspot, flyer, etc. Just because an athlete has a running tuck and two standing bhs that doesn't automatically place them on a L3 team. The coaches are looking for all of the necessary skills performed with good execution. Sometimes there is a need for an athlete in a stunting position that maybe isn't quite there yet on the tumbling. Maybe they are still working that full but are needed for stunting on the R5.
This season I have seen so many amazing teams on all levels. I have been feeling though that there is a new trend upon us that maybe everyone hasn't realized. Not anyone in particular but just sort of as a whole. Or maybe I am the one that is really late to the party. I have seen so many teams that really could be a higher level team but the gym is choosing to compete a level lower so the team is highly competitive. I don't know that I think that is stacking. Maybe, maybe not. I am not talking about a team that is competing two or more levels down based on the majority of the athletes. I am talking about a team that has a majority of layouts that are more piked than hollow that chooses to compete as a L3 because they know it, they own it, and they want to put a high technical quality team together.
I am now thinking that those gyms are the most forward thinking of them all. They obviously are aware of the score sheets and how to build the most competitive teams they have based on the skill set of their athlete pool. They clearly know their athletes' abilities and I think maybe they have the best understanding of how to put those abilities to work for the best advantage for the team. For whatever reason the coaches have basically made it clear to the Suzie's Moms and Dads that even though Suzie can chunk a janky (insert tumble skill of choice here) that doesn't make her a true level (insert corresponding level here) athlete. Does that make sense? If the parents don't like the philosophy they are welcome to go elsewhere. The coaches themselves also have to be very realistic about which levels their teams can truly be to remain competitive. I have met coaches that are every bit as delusional about the level teams they can truly field as Suzie's parents are about the level Suzie should truly be.
I feel like this creates an environment that nurtures a realistic expectation for everyone involved in the program in terms of what it takes to be successful and what the end goals are. Proper progression, great technique, confident athletes, trusting parents, strong level appropriate routines that are competitive in the competitions the gym attends. It seems that realistic expectations across the gym are one of the foundational keys for a strongly successful program. The parent/coach/athlete/gym owner delusions about what needs to happen and what should happen have to be dealt with. That isn't to say an athlete shouldn't work and hope to reach a team level of their dream or that a coach/owner shouldn't work and hope to build a team level of their dream. I think it means that those goals are not going to be reached if the plan to reach them is based on delusion and not reality. Strong structures are not built on shaky soil.
Personally I would much rather my CP be on a team where she (and everyone on her team) is strong in those level needed skills.

This is why I love all of Rockstars routines! [emoji7]


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[klynn64]

I think there is a difference between cross overs or ie Stacking, Sand bagging. What most people dislike is the latter. In my opinion Stacking happens for purely two reasons you have an owner/coach that believes you win at all costs or it's purely $$$. You have a program that is trying to get going or a Mega program that believe wins translate into more athletes joining their program which makes them more $$$.

The Summit has it in their rules day 1 they will accomadate your cross overs. Day 2 the performance order is set by your ranking day 1. If you have teams that are performing in Jostens and the field house that have double teamers at roughly the same time your in trouble.

You mention one rationale behind stacking could ba a "Mega program that believe wins translate into more athletes joining". I'm not sure why only a mega-gym would do this. I think you'll find this occurs no matter what the gym size is. I actually think you might see it occur more with the small-medium programs. They are more dependent on athletes joining to keep the doors open. So they have more at stake. And they have enough athletes to stack. Real small programs don't have the numbers to effectively stack. Not without it being extremely obvious anyway.

I like gyms that have team specific uniforms because then it's easier to identify the crossovers. Also, with the new modesty guidelines for uniforms you can often notice the crossovers by their difference in their tops.

 

[klynn64]

This is why I love all of Rockstars routines! [emoji7]


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I don't want to throw shade but check out Rockstar's Level 4/5 athletes perform their J2 routine at NCA 2013. The same stacked team went to Summit that same year.

 

[CheerDad18]

You mention one rationale behind stacking could ba a "Mega program that believe wins translate into more athletes joining". I'm not sure why only a mega-gym would do this. I think you'll find this occurs no matter what the gym size is. I actually think you might see it occur more with the small-medium programs. They are more dependent on athletes joining to keep the doors open. So they have more at stake. And they have enough athletes to stack. Real small programs don't have the numbers to effectively stack. Not without it being extremely obvious anyway.

I like gyms that have team specific uniforms because then it's easier to identify the crossovers. Also, with the new modesty guidelines for uniforms you can often notice the crossovers by their difference in their tops.

I did say a program that is trying to "get going", to me that is a smaller program. I should have been more specific. But as I stated before it's usually two reasons a win at all costs mentality or money.

 

[TheVipersMom]

I don't want to throw shade but check out Rockstar's Level 4/5 athletes perform their J2 routine at NCA 2013. The same stacked team went to Summit that same year.

I remember that specific team and the posts on here about it and I didn't necessarily agree with what they did.

However overall, my comment about loving Rockstars teams comes from the teams I have seen the past couple years in general. Not that one specific team that was created to win and compete there. But overall there teams are strong and are placed level appropriate and they execute well and they are fun to watch. As is most of Cali's routines that I have ever seen at NCA and they have always amazed me. I would also like to think my daughters gym fits that mold as well. I don't think of them as sandbagging but more level appropriate across the board.

Yall aren't crossing over level 5 kids to your j2. Your level 2 though has good strong level 2 tumbling and good stunting skills because they are trained and prepped as level 2 athletes. Not a bunch of level 1 kids that just got their frog BHS being pushed to throw level 2 tumbling across the floor on their head.


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[klynn64]

I remember that specific team and the posts on here about it and I didn't necessarily agree with what they did.

However overall, my comment about loving Rockstars teams comes from the teams I have seen the past couple years in general. Not that one specific team that was created to win and compete there. But overall there teams are strong and are placed level appropriate and they execute well and they are fun to watch. As is most of Cali's routines that I have ever seen at NCA and they have always amazed me. I would also like to think my daughters gym fits that mold as well. I don't think of them as sandbagging but more level appropriate across the board.

Yall aren't crossing over level 5 kids to your j2. Your level 2 though has good strong level 2 tumbling and good stunting skills because they are trained and prepped as level 2 athletes. Not a bunch of level 1 kids that just got their frog BHS being pushed to throw level 2 tumbling across the floor on their head.


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You are probably a better judge of the overall Rockstar program than I. Admittedly, we don't see Rockstar out West (actually only at NCA), so I have a limited perspective based on an isolated case. Granted it wasn't a positive experience and for that reason it probably sticks with me. But, having said that, I have to say that overall I've heard many positive things about the Rockstar program over the years. And they do field some good seemingly level appropriate teams. (again, I have very limited exposure to their teams).

 

[TheDivineCheerYaYaSecret]

@klynn64 that was before our time there. I heard about it after we switched while reading this board early last year. I can in no way say anything about that as I wasn't there and have no firsthand knowledge. That was a brutal thread. I can say that the poster that first posted about it had just started no longer being employed at coaching at our gym. But again, I wasn't there.

I can also say that I have seen other gyms doing the same thing to take teams to the Summit just this season. Tweeting about try outs for a team that is going (has already won a bid but isn't taking most of the same athletes that earned it), but that's not my business. (Not trying to sound snarky!! Tried rewriting that part several times and it just isn't coming across well)

I can say that last year and this year every single one of Rockstar's teams have been incredibly level appropriate. CP and I were actually at NCA this year competing with our SLCR5. We had three teams competing, The Rolling Stones IOC5, The Beatles SmC5, and The Red Hot Chili Peppers SLCR5. We are planning to bring at least two more teams beyond those to NCA next year.

I would love to have more exposure to the West coast gyms. I have seen videos of course but after seeing them in person at NCA I realized that the videos don't do them true justice!

 

[astaley22]

I can also say that I have seen other gyms doing the same thing to take teams to the Summit just this season. Tweeting about try outs for a team that is going (has already won a bid but isn't taking most of the same athletes that earned it), but that's not my business. (Not trying to sound snarky!! Tried rewriting that part several times and it just isn't coming across well)!

Words can't describe how annoyed I was when I saw that tweet if it's the same team I'm thinking of. It really irritates me that it seems taking the team you won the summit bid with is a foreign concept to some gyms.

 

[Helen uk uni cheer]

I was on a coaching course this weekend and the people asked on the course about crossovers and if there can be a benefit. The instructors response was really interesting she said she does use crossovers for her program mainly for older youth who might be ready for a higher level but she felt would benefit from still working with their own age group.

The other reason was interesting she said she has some crossover from open 2 to senior 1 for conditioning purposes as she feels level one can be harder than level 2 as you dont have the momentum in the stunts and to keep solid walkovers