All-Star Crossovers And Sandbagging

[nicolee]

A lot of the kids we're talking about are still really little. Perhaps they love tumbling and just want to throw a pass on the floor at a big competition? It would be hard to deny a 10- or 11-year-old the opportunity. At the end of the day, even if it doesn't seem fair, it's a coach's and parent's right to do what they think is best for their child. It's easy to presume that crossovers are all about stacking teams to win, but what if that's not the sole reason?

...I'm just being devil's advocate here and trying to see both sides of the story

 

[CEA_ATC]

This is the most ridiculous post ever.

My daughter has never tumbled in a competition. Never. She's TWENTY years old. Because her tumbling was level 2 and her team was level 5 (or 3, or 4, depending on the year). So we should have crossed her to a level 2 team so she could shine?

If I was that worried about my child shining and getting to do everything, I probably wouldn't sign her up for a TEAM activity.

As still a youth athlete, I don't want her to feel like she will never be able to tumble. We are still hoping for a "spark" tumble-wise to go off in her, since she has had some tumble skills previously that have mysteriously left her.

I think the only thing about the whole conversation that catches me wrong is the idea that once you have been on a certain level team, you are forever and always a "level X" athlete. 4.2 wouldn't even exist then, right?? This isn't about my kids chance to "shine"... I am perfectly happy with her doing what she is right now, as long as she is happy, which she is.

 

[Just-a-Mom]

I think the only thing about the whole conversation that catches me wrong is the idea that once you have been on a certain level team, you are forever and always a "level X" athlete.

No one said anything like this. Where have you seen "forever and always"?

What people are saying is that once you're on a certain level team, you shouldn't also be competing on a team that is TWO levels lower *at the same time* (key part that you are missing). That doesn't mean once you're on y5 you can't be on y3 next season... Just that's it's not so cool to be on y3 later that day.

 

[Mom2Cheergirls]

As still a youth athlete, I don't want her to feel like she will never be able to tumble. We are still hoping for a "spark" tumble-wise to go off in her, since she has had some tumble skills previously that have mysteriously left her.

I think the only thing about the whole conversation that catches me wrong is the idea that once you have been on a certain level team, you are forever and always a "level X" athlete. 4.2 wouldn't even exist then, right?? This isn't about my kids chance to "shine"... I am perfectly happy with her doing what she is right now, as long as she is happy, which she is.

And as you said she is a 2 year level 5 beast of a base competing on a level 3 team but "as long as she is happy". If they are not level 5 then they shouldn't be on it 2 level cross over down is wrong and it has clearly benefitted CEA.

Part of cheer is accepting that you may or may not get to do everything. My kid (young Youth athlete) got hurt. Doctor said she could still jump and dance. It would have made her happy to do that but she also knew that it would effect the percentage of tumblers and her team's score. She sat out to keep the tumbler percentage up because she knew it would hurt her team just to have her do those parts as they had to pull in a sub (which they did from a lower level team). They have a small team and they have worked hard to have all of them tumbling and all the girls are aware of it. Coach and I didn't even get a chance to say a word to her about if she would compete - she did what was right for her team regardless about how it made her feel..

I have a mini age CP besides Youth age - you know what she nuggets tumbling and she gets it. She works her butt off at tumble but until she has it she nuggets that part but she gives her all in what she does for her team. Yes cheer should be fun and our kids should love their sport. But it is 100% okay to deny kids an opportunity if they aren't ready for it. Teaching values that they can carry through their life is just as important as the fun. My kids still have fun and are happy even when the hard choices come those things are not mutually exclusive. One life lesson they have certainly learned is that some teams/gyms will do whatever to go for the win. Note I did not say break the rules there is no rule against sand bagging. They have however been against teams that have clearly put overage athletes on teams as well but that is a whole other thing.

I think your perspective is exactly from your kids chance to be happy and shine based on pretty much every comment you have made. Note there is nothing wrong with that but based on your comments it is clearly your perspective. "So my kid NEVER gets to tumble on the competition mat according to your little rule about "what's fair"? She never gets to be a kid who gets to do that part?" "I am perfectly happy with her doing what she is right now, as long as she is happy, which she is". Still in NO way does that justify taking level 5 athletes and bringing them down to consistently compete on a level 3 team. Against true level 3 athletes.

"I think the only thing about the whole conversation that catches me wrong is the idea that once you have been on a certain level team, you are forever and always a "level X" athlete" I would say these kids on Y5 currently who are currently competing on Y3 and going for Summit may not forever be level 5 but they certainly are now as far as CEA is concerned and USASF and those athletes which there are more than one are fitting the definition of sand bagging a level 3 team. Regardless if CSP is putting those girls on a team to push them they must be doing well especially if they are multiple years on that level 5 team and competing down on a level 3. You may not like the term you definitely see it different being on the side of the benefit but what is going on is the very definition of sandbagging.

 

[12stepCheermom]

Perception is often more powerful than the truth. If a group looks like a duck and quacks like a duck, they'll get treated like a duck even if they're really a goose. Don't want to be accused of abusing the loopholes? Don't do it.

I think this is an astute observation. Perception is powerful. That being said, if you're going to crossover athletes from marquis teams, and wish to avoid the sandbagging perception, I suggest changing them out of their iconic (and immediately recognizable) uniforms so they match the team they're competing with.


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[CheerBank]

I think this is an astute observation. Perception is powerful. That being said, if you're going to crossover athletes from marquis teams, and wish to avoid the sandbagging perception, I suggest changing them out of their iconic (and immediately recognizable) uniforms so they match the team they're competing with.


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Marquis or non-marquis. Yesterday we watched one team use the same flyer (blonde bob and glasses) on their jr 3, jr 4 and sr 4 team. We also watched a young man on another jr 3 team execute beautiful high floaty BHS-back tuck passes in cross tumbling and then throw gorgeous high layouts and standing back tucks on his sr 4 team. We see you! The marquis uniform does make it a little more "in your face" though.

 

[12stepCheermom]

Marquis or non-marquis. Yesterday we watched one team use the same flyer (blonde bob and glasses) on their jr 3, jr 4 and sr 4 team. We also watched a young man on another jr 3 team execute beautiful high floaty BHS-back tuck passes in cross tumbling and then throw gorgeous high layouts and standing back tucks on his sr 4 team. We see you! The marquis uniform does make it a little more "in your face" though.

It was a few years ago but there was a gym that used the same guy on their senior 2,3,4 and 5. You couldn't miss him because he was a fabulous dancer and was point in all four routines. Later that season another gym had a guy on their senior 3 and his final pose had his arm up over his head in the center mat...which pulled his sleeve down enough to show the fluorescent yellow coaches arm band. Cp16 saw it from the top of the bleachers and was less than impressed that someone with coaching credentials was competing on a senior 3.

For better or worse, perception frames reality.


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[ChicCheerMom]

I think this is an astute observation. Perception is powerful. That being said, if you're going to crossover athletes from marquis teams, and wish to avoid the sandbagging perception, I suggest changing them out of their iconic (and immediately recognizable) uniforms so they match the team they're competing with.


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This!!! It was so obvious at BATB. We started playing how many teams will an athlete show up on.

 

[SheCheers]

My CP swears the GP routine is harder than YE for her..

Super clipping your post because it was too much for me. I would say that a routine where a kid tumbles is going to be harder. Aside from jumps, it's the most exhausting part of a routine (the tumbling). Before cp was injured she said, and I quote "I never get a break." Now that she is injured and can't do running tumbling, it's pretty "easy" for her to just stunt.

 

[klynn64]

Thank you for this. My CP happens to be on the two most notorious Youth teams in the business, it seems. She does NOT have level 5 tumbling skills, not even close, but is in her second year on Youth Elite. She is there because she is aBEAST base and a great dancer. To be honest, at the moment, she isn't even a level three tumbler (d@mn tumble block)... But on Fierceboard, my kid is "sandbagging". I'm like: "What the what?". The comment someone made earlier about "when they cross up to level 5, that is what they are" is simply ludicrous.

I have discussed at length in here about the way CSP does things, and this GP/YE thing is more of the same for most of the crossovers: you get placed on one "appropriate" team for your skills and one "stretch" team that may be a bit out of your range, but will push you. That is how my child is on YE and GP. Glitter Penguins are appropriate for her, and Youth Elite is a stretch... But it makes her better.

In the instance you discuss, you talk about pushing the athlete by being on a Level 5 team. What is the reason for being on the Level 3 team ?

 

[klynn64]

This is probably not a popular opinion, but I don't mind the crossovers, even to lower-level teams. In certain situations it can do good things for an athlete: helping them learn a different position, giving them experience with a different team (eg. learning to coed stunt if an athlete has mostly competed all-girl).

A family friend of mine is 10 and recently moved up to level 5. She was devastated at having to leave a lot of her friends, most of whom are level 4. So she crosses over to that team despite having all level 5 skills, and despite being a level 5 flyer, is learning to base on the level 4 team.

Ultimately, if a gym wants to cross kids over then that's their prerogative. Until it's illegal then they have the right to do so.

Unfortunately it's also the prerogative of competitors to claim those teams are sandbagging.

 

[klynn64]

I discuss this from my child's perspective because it is the only one I can (and should) speak from. There are more aspects to this than "so she can do a tumble pass". Becoming a complete cheerleader is part of it for many of the crossovers (tumbling for non tumblers, basing/backspotting for some flyers, maybe getting to dance in the front for once, and for mine- a bit more of a leader role than on YE). I would honestly say about half of the crossovers are "crossing up" and about half "crossing down" if you use tumble skills as the delineator (which is what a LOT of what we use to determine that for an individual). No matter how much we discuss this team, no one is convincing someone who is set for or against of anything, IMHO.

Personal opinion about why we have this team anyway: we all know CSP wants the Y5 division to stay around. Part of keeping it is building a "feeder" system of athletes who are ready for it. I think GP might be part of that, as well... Taking kids who have potential but aren't ready for YE yet and giving them a team that has the same kind of "feel" to see how they hold up. Being on YE can be pressure packed, and not all hold up. No inside info at all there... Just a guess.

As far as Summit- We know we are blessed to be able to compete twice. But please nobody think that the Y3 team is any sort of walk in the park. My CP swears the GP routine is harder than YE for her. And they have not been unbeatable by any means... Glitter took us out twice already.

No coach is going to have a Level 5 team comprised 50% of Level 3 athletes . They would not be competitive. An athlete doesn't have to have 100% of their Level skills to be viewed as performing at that level. When someone wants to know how good an athlete is they ask what team they are on. Not the skill level of their basing, tumbling etc. That's because everyone knows if you're on that team you're performing at a skill level that is on par with your team.

I feel like if you were on the receiving end of a team doing what you're doing, your perspective might change.

 

[Cheer Dad]

No coach is going to have a Level 5 team comprised 50% of Level 3 athletes . They would not be competitive.


Quite Edited for content .

Are you sure about this, have you not seen some of the teams competing for world bids right now?

@CEA_ATC and others please remember we are not attacking the athletes just the circumstances and scenarios of crossovers.

My cp crosses over but with only 3-4 crossovers I don't see that as sandbagging but if .Half a team is crossing down that yes I am much more likely to call it sandbagging. There are many with the opinion that even one or two kids crossing down is sandbagging and that is okay but then again since my CP crosses down I definitely will have a different perspective than those on teams who do not have crossovers.


**Show of hands, who thinks their vague booking about changing gyms is so clever we don't understand it?**

 

[catlady]

I haven't been watching AS cheer long enough to know what gyms heavily depend on large percentages of crossovers between teams and which don't but, it would be very interesting to look at the consistency of their lower level teams, as well as, injury and burn out rate of their athletes.

 

[TheVipersMom]

Are you sure about this, have you not seen some of the teams competing for world bids right now?

@CEA_ATC and others please remember we are not attacking the athletes just the circumstances and scenarios of crossovers.

My cp crosses over but with only 3-4 crossovers I don't see that as sandbagging but if .Half a team is crossing down that yes I am much more likely to call it sandbagging. There are many with the opinion that even one or two kids crossing down is sandbagging and that is okay but then again since my CP crosses down I definitely will have a different perspective than those on teams who do not have crossovers.


**Show of hands, who thinks their vague booking about changing gyms is so clever we don't understand it?**

Every single boy on yoso was a TGLC crossover which makes me wonder why YOSO is coed and not all girl and I know there was more than just them so I think a little more than 4 crosses over to their non worlds team lol


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