All-Star Difficulty Grid

[BlueCat]

One of the issues that I see with scoring all-star is that there is no set structure to determine the difficulty of skills. There needs to be a single, understandable framework that could be used as a reference for determine what stunts/tumbling elements/baskets etc are harder to perform than others.

NOTE: This is NOT the thread to determine how important difficulty is compared to execution. This is not to debate whether a script of skills is necessary for each team. This is not for discussion about whether stunts should be given more weight than tumbling. This is not the place to decide what scores various skills should receive. Those are valid arguments that can be had in other threads.

Regardless of your opinion on those things, it seems logical that SOME standard that determines what is harder than what would be in order. There is NO way that a list could be comprehensive and include every conceivable skill. The grid would have to be adjusted over time and tweaked as the industry evolved. Any new skills can be debated and placed into the grid as they come into use.

 

[12stepCheermom]

I think until there is a single and common scoring grid, this (while completely necessary) will end up looking just as varied from EP to EP as their grids are.

 

[BlueCat]

Here is a google doc we could use to brainstorm

Difficulty Grids

 

[BlueCat]

I think until there is a single and common scoring grid, this (while completely necessary) will end up looking just as varied from EP to EP as their grids are.

How it is scored would (currently) still be up the EPs. What is harder than what should still be at least somewhat measurable and standard across events, IMO.

 

[SparkleSpankies]

Cheer LTD uses a grid and the nice thing is it pinpoints all the legal items in all-star for each level and trying to maximixe entrances and exits to skills, transitions in skills, number of bases, etc. In tumbling the more simple skills vs max skills, combinging skills, etc. Full team versus majority versus just one person and it is really easy to determine a potential difficulty score. It's not perfect but it is a good system and it helps in accuracy.

 

[BlueCat]

Cheer LTD uses a grid and the nice thing is it pinpoints all the legal items in all-star for each level and trying to maximixe entrances and exits to skills, transitions in skills, number of bases, etc. In tumbling the more simple skills vs max skills, combinging skills, etc. Full team versus majority versus just one person and it is really easy to determine a potential difficulty score. It's not perfect but it is a good system and it helps in accuracy.

That may be a good starting point. Do you have a link?

 

[King]

I think one of the complaints people would have against a difficulty grid is that if everyone knew the difficulty of the skills they would just all do the same thing as hard as they could and every routine would look the same.

My counter to that is three fold.

1. If there was a COP there wouldn't need to be a ceiling on the difficulty section. If you know you do these many elements to get this score you could technically do quadruple ups the entire routine and have a massive stunt score (though the sero's in everything else would probably bring you out of contention).

2. As creativity and live performance will still count for something the team that presents something different and new would still be rewarded.

3. Skills are hard. Just because something is the hardest doesn't mean everyone can do it and hit. Perhaps 10 teams try the hardest thing they can and all drop. The 11th team does something slightly within their abilities but still within range and they win. Brings in more strategy.

 

[BlueCat]

I agree that there doesn't need to be a ceiling on the grid. If someone comes up with something harder than anything we've ever seen, then it just gets added in a new grid spot higher than the one we have.

I also get frustrated when people argue against codifying the difficulty because they think that either stifle creativity & variety, or make difficulty more important. Those can all be their own categories on the scoresheet and you can weight them however you wish. Difficulty is somewhat objective and measurable, and to avoid doing so seems silly to me.

 

[BlueCat]

Throwing out an idea, loosely based on gymnastics and rock climbing difficulty. Have categories based on what is allowable at each level.
A = skills allowed in Level 1
B = skills who are NOT allowed at 1, but ARE allowed at 2, etc. . .

You could set up the grid to where some skills that are allowed at a level are actually harder than some of the skills allowed at the level above. An unassisted toss one arm liberty (L4 - D) is harder than a stretch double (L5 - E), for example.

You would then add the number onto the letter, with the number increasing as the difficulty gets higher.

D-1 = easiest allowable skill at level 4
D-9 = very difficult level 4 skill
D-10 = hardest skill in relatively common use (one and a half up to prep level?)

You could go even higher as someone came up with harder stuff than what is normally seen. D-11, D-12, etc.

 

[BlueCat]

Also, you could have a point where one letter's difficulty is actually higher than a letter above it. For example, a D-10 could be more difficult than an E-1. All "Level 5 skills" aren't always more difficult than some of the stuff that you allow at level 4.

 

[XtremeWpg]

http://cms.cheercanada.net/images/pdf/difficultygrids/asalas16.pdf

This is the one that we use when I'm judging.

 

[5-6-7-8]

I agree that there doesn't need to be a ceiling on the grid. If someone comes up with something harder than anything we've ever seen, then it just gets added in a new grid spot higher than the one we have.

I also get frustrated when people argue against codifying the difficulty because they think that either stifle creativity & variety, or make difficulty more important. Those can all be their own categories on the scoresheet and you can weight them however you wish. Difficulty is somewhat objective and measurable, and to avoid doing so seems silly to me.

And the "silly" thing is, this is sort of the practice anyway it would just now objectively quantify the difficulty. (I mean, routines are already created to put as much difficulty in as can be reasonably executed. Coaches already make decisions to compete a harder routine that may not always hit or to compete a routine that might not be the most difficult but they know they can hit it clean.) All that is changing is actually giving a number to that difficulty.

 

[cscheerio]

http://cms.cheercanada.net/images/pdf/difficultygrids/asalas16.pdf

This is the one that we use when I'm judging.

Just about to post this

 

[SparkleSpankies]

That may be a good starting point. Do you have a link?

Cheer Ltd :: Other Cheer Ltd Site Pages :: Downloads - Cheerleading Camps, Clinics, Certification, Competitions, and Team Merchandise

There is a list of score sheets and all info and a Scoring Grid. There is a Level 5/6 grid also, but it's not on the site right now for some reason!

 

[XtremeWpg]

Just about to post this

There's also a whole wack of 'rules' that go along with this grid with regards to majority etc. If the majority doesn't do skills, you drop a box on the grid etc etc. It's quite complex, but once you know how to work around in it, it's pretty decent.

The main point is that if you do the skill listed in the box for a given point range, that just gets you the bottom score of that range.
So for Level 3-stunts, the 1/2 up to extended one leg at majority, just gets you the 10.6 of the range. Adding transitions and mounts and air postitions are what gets you higher within the box.