All-Star Does Execution Matter?

[MomOf2ThatsMe]

It is hard enough to get judges together scoring a single gymnast doing a set of skills. How about 36 at the same time. Maybe we should all judge a competition before we make too many comments.

Perhaps 36 athletes on the floor is entirely too many to realistically judge and get a completely accurate score on.

 

[CoachPam]

DEFINATELY YES! Execution in stunts drives me nuts..especially when one team tries to add all the difficulty and their falling or have bobbles all over the place. Then you have your team that has unbelievable execution, not as much difficulty, but you better believe their body positions are on point. Nothing looks better than perfect body positions or atleast that they are in the correct place in the air.

 

[StarshipTrooper]

Perhaps 36 athletes on the floor is entirely too many to realistically judge and get a completely accurate score on.

You know, that may be the reality without taking a lot longer time and video review. And that would only be necessary for certain divisions at certain competitions. But the big Nationals and Worlds should definitely think about using that tool to get things right.

 

[Taylor25]

Im not sure if it is actually on the score sheet but i feel if you execute the routine better and hhave more energy throughout the routine, you recieve morer points in the other areas of the score sheet!

 

[King]

I have always been under the impression that judging panels rely less on standards such as numbers of skills and the numbers executed cleanly and rely on the impression of a routine compared to others in the division. I can tell you I knew SE's routine better than anyone except Courtney and Sarah, and there was no way I could comment on specific passes, stunts and how they were executed specifically after the routine was done unless I focused on a certain skill. I just knew if it looked right. And I think the bell curve idea makes sense but it IS NOT PRACTICAL unless you judge a routine by video review. Until you go there, you are relying on judge's impression of a routine over 150 seconds as compared to the impression of a routine they may have seen an hour or 2 before. May be the best that can be done, may be fine IF THE JUDGES are just the very greatest, but no way, no how can you call it predictalbe and reproducable almost by definition.

Execution is done per skill category. I am not sure why it wouldnt be practical? I can look at a section of a routine and tell you if they executed it better than average, average, or below average. in a .3 range that the judges would get for their own personal impression they could determine where that section falls. execution is a per skill basis. great tumbling will still score great even if a stunt section had crazy stunts.

 

[StarshipTrooper]

Execution is done per skill category. I am not sure why it wouldnt be practical? I can look at a section of a routine and tell you if they executed it better than average, average, or below average. in a .3 range that the judges would get for their own personal impression they could determine where that section falls. execution is a per skill basis. great tumbling will still score great even if a stunt section had crazy stunts.

I would be the first to say I'm certain you and others are much better at that than I, but my strong suspiscion is that in highly packed level 5 routines that even the very best judges would benefit from video review before scoring. It works in every other sport that is not nearly as complex to judge. It should work even better in cheer. For instance, the judges can screen out the cutoff of the top teams, say 5 to 10, and spend a few extra minutes going over the video and coming to agreement on the score. Especially if you hire enough to have multiple panels at these high profile events, specifically Worlds, NCA, CheerSport and JamFest. But I do appreciate your attempts to put method into the madness.

 

[King]

I would be the first to say I'm certain you and others are much better at that than I, but my strong suspiscion is that in highly packed level 5 routines that even the very best judges would benefit from video review before scoring. It works in every other sport that is not nearly as complex to judge. It should work even better in cheer. For instance, the judges can screen out the cutoff of the top teams, say 5 to 10, and spend a few extra minutes going over the video and coming to agreement on the score. Especially if you hire enough to have multiple panels at these high profile events, specifically Worlds, NCA, CheerSport and JamFest. But I do appreciate your attempts to put method into the madness.

The issue is there is just as much in a level 4 routine, or 3 routine or any routine. Just because people are not twisting doesnt mean there isnt craziness going on at all times. It goes to say the easier you make your routines to judge the more rewarded you will be.

 

[StarshipTrooper]

The issue is there is just as much in a level 4 routine, or 3 routine or any routine. Just because people are not twisting doesnt mean there isnt craziness going on at all times. It goes to say the easier you make your routines to judge the more rewarded you will be.

I have no doubt, but mainly I'm talking Worlds. What is good for the goose is good for the gander.

 

[King]

Arbitrary numbers, like 25 points for execution, are toooooo difficulty for a judge to quantify. It has to be a construct they can wrap their heads around.

What does a routine look like that scores 17 out of 25 points of execution? Could you describe it?

What if I asked: that routine executed better than average, but not amazing. Could you describe that? If I asked you to give that a score on a scale of 1 - 10, with 5 being average, could you?

 

[emmabug95]

It definitely should matter, but I think the focus is now less on execution on more on how much stuff you can jam into your routine. For instance, go and watch videos from Worlds a few years back. Stunts were simpler back then, but you never ever ever saw so much as a bobble at huge competitions like NCA or Worlds (or.. you know what I mean. You rarely saw that type of thing). Now, you have a team like (and I'm not attacking them, I personally love this team) Senior Elite cramming 600000 ticktocks into their routine, have a major bobble in a straight up heel stretch, and still win Worlds. Worlds.

And as for me, I enjoy reading what @kingston posts. Even if it's not necessarily his own opinion, it starts an interesting conversation about the sport which is, really, the reason I'm on the boards.

 

[StarshipTrooper]

Arbitrary numbers, like 25 points for execution, are toooooo difficulty for a judge to quantify. It has to be a construct they can wrap their heads around.

What does a routine look like that scores 17 out of 25 points of execution? Could you describe it?

What if I asked: that routine executed better than average, but not amazing. Could you describe that? If I asked you to give that a score on a scale of 1 - 10, with 5 being average, could you?

I'm the choir on this one Preacher. Again, I could do a pretty good job with an hour to sit down and come to consensus with my colleagues on a judging panel after reviewing the video. I think both accurate and reproducable.

 

[King]

I will not argue the accuracy of a long sit down and review, the practicality would be difficult.

 

[StarshipTrooper]

the practicality would be difficult.

It would cost a bit more to have multiple panels, and it would delay awards by an hour or so, but it would only be necessary if the division was too close to call or requested by the staffs for reasonable reasons. Throw Jammy off the stage and you'd save about 1/2 the time you lost.

 

[King]

It would cost a bit more to have multiple panels, and it would delay awards by an hour or so, but it would only be necessary if the division was too close to call or requested by the staffs for reasonable reasons. Throw Jammy off the stage and you'd save about 1/2 the time you lost.

Jammy should be thrown off stage anyway... possibly a cliff. Man that thing is scary.

But this is one of the challenges in any division. If there is a review process and the possibility my team might get more points and win if reviewed better I am probably challenging every single division I have a team in. I don't care if it is Tiny 1, if my team can benefit by getting judged 'better'.

As well, you are then making a statement about your judges saying they arent good enough to judge on the fly. We dont really trust their initial decision, so we are going to go back and review it.

 

[The bow lady]

I think cheerleading would be taken more seriously if execution counted more. Coaches would focus more on progression of skills and not put things in routines that could not be performed safely.

Over the yrs I have watched cheerleaders being rushed into skills: tumbling, going from a bhs to a lay-out to a full. what about all the steps in between. Don't rush it, that is how injuries and burn out occur. The same goes for stunting. If I see one more bent knee, L shape scorp. Just because she/he is small does not make a flyer. I would much rather see a more flexible flyer large or small, who is capable of hitting all body positions w/o a look of pain on their face from stretching. Then and only then, will I say it was executed properly