All-Star Does Going First In A Division Really Affect Scoring/placement?

[cherita.cheerology]

In divisions where three teams are within a point of each other, it doesn't need to be a "huge difference".

She's talking about the overall competition like the difference between judging one division at 11am and judging a completely different division at 7pm.


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[BlueCat]

It has been shown fairly conclusively that scores tend to rise as the division goes in the larger divisions. Worlds has done a nearly ideal statistical experiment when they use a lottery system to randomly assign the order for certain bid types in early rounds. When you analyze the scores across multiple divisions, the scores definitely tend to rise. Worlds also tends to have the most experienced and well-regarded judges.

My assumption is that this is more true for comparative scoring than scoring against a theoretical standard, but years of competitions make me believe that it happens on nearly any type of score sheet.

That is not to say that every single team is going to get a higher score than the team before them. It isn't a perfect correlation. However, when divisions are decided by .01 at times, it can absolutely make a different in placements.

 

[cheermomforever]

There was s no way that teams going for the same bids this weekend are going to be judged the same when the first worlds team is at 8am and 9 1/2 hours later the last one goes.


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[cherita.cheerology]

There was s no way that teams going for the same bids this weekend are going to be judged the same when the first worlds team is at 8am and 9 1/2 hours later the last one goes.


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Correct, but that's not placement, that's for bids. Which means we need a better way to determine bids.


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[cherita.cheerology]

Huge as in cheer huge (fraction of a point)?

I misread your initial comment, I thought you meant in different divisions, no I don't see a difference. If a judge who is judging jumps sees a "flawless" team that's 2nd out of 10 and they give them a perfect score (for whatever reason) if another team later has better jumps they're going to still give that team a perfect score. The comparativeness should be to want the judge deems "perfect" and that's based off their knowledge and professionalism.


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[Momager]

If there were no advantage to going later, then why does first day placement determine second day order of performance? Yeah.
Coming from gymnastics, it is common practice for teams to put their gymnasts in order with the strongest contenders going last at invitationals and at college meets. ( At state, regional and national meets they are random ordered by draw). Performance order matters. There is plenty of data. It doesn't mean that if a very good team goes last and has lots of mistakes that they will benefit. It just means that there is proof of some advantages in being last.

 

[cherita.cheerology]

If there were no advantage to going later, then why does first day placement determine second day order of performance? Yeah.
Coming from gymnastics, it is common practice for teams to put their gymnasts in order with the strongest contenders going last at invitationals and at college meets. ( At state, regional and national meets they are random ordered by draw). Performance order matters. There is plenty of data. It doesn't mean that if a very good team goes last and has lots of mistakes that they will benefit. It just means that there is proof of some advantages in being last.

There's no correlation between placements and performance order in my opinion. I was a competitive gymnast for 12 years, usually people place their strongest competitors last to build momentum. It's not like because the strongest person goes last they automatically receive a higher score. They get a higher score because they're the strongest competitor.


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[cheer25mom]

REALLY??!!!?!? Hmm...that doesn't seem right as far as divisions being spread out like that. I can definitely see your thinking then. There needs to be a better way to determine bids...you're right. Hmm...this is giving me tons of ideas. I might do a video about this. Thanks for your insight!


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Yep, youth 2 might go from 10-11:30, and senior 2 not until 4-6:30. At the 8:00 awards they crown a level 2 grand champ. Also, at bigger comps with more teams I have seen particularly youth 2 to take 3-4 hours because they are putting teams in between. I think a lot of that is due to crossovers. It's a level that seems full of younger high level athletes that cross down from 3 or 4 as well as level 2 kids crossing to junior 1. It makes scheduling go all over the pace sometimes.

 

[cherita.cheerology]

Yep, youth 2 might go from 10-11:30, and senior 2 not until 4-6:30. At the 8:00 awards they crown a level 2 grand champ. Also, at bigger comps with more teams I have seen particularly youth 2 to take 3-4 hours because they are putting teams in between. I think a lot of that is due to crossovers. It's a level that seems full of younger high level athletes that cross down from 3 or 4 as well as level 2 kids crossing to junior 1. It makes scheduling go all over the pace sometimes.

Which means there needs some kind of limit or cap on crossovers. Idk. Who is it benefitting really?


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[cheer25mom]

I misread your initial comment, I thought you meant in different divisions, no I don't see a difference. If a judge who is judging jumps sees a "flawless" team that's 2nd out of 10 and they give them a perfect score (for whatever reason) if another team later has better jumps they're going to still give that team a perfect score. The comparativeness should be to want the judge deems "perfect" and that's based off their knowledge and professionalism.


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But, in my experience many judges won't give that perfect score on the second team. They leave themselves room for better later. That's where the issues with bids come in.

 

[cherita.cheerology]

But, in my experience many judges won't give that perfect score on the second team. They leave themselves room for better later. That's where the issues with bids come in.

Yes, which is why teams in the beginning may score lower for wiggle room but still win...but then be affected by a bid or grand champ.


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[cheer25mom]

Which means there needs some kind of limit or cap on crossovers. Idk. Who is it benefitting really?


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I do think there needs to be a limit, but I don't know where it should be. We are ata small gym and we couldn't have either team without our crossovers between levels 2 and 3.

 

[TheVipersMom]

Back in the day I use to only want to go last just because I liked watching the other teams first.

Haha but I don't watch the other teams anymore so I don't really care when we go.
I have found this year because we see the same teams A LOT, that no matter the order we go in the final results and difference between teams usually end up the same so I assume the judges are getting it right no matter what order they go in. So I'd like to give them the benefit of the doubt although I'm sure it's not perfect I think they genuinely try.




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[cheer25mom]

Back in the day I use to only want to go last just because I liked watching the other teams first.

Haha but I don't watch the other teams anymore so I don't really care when we go.
I have found this year because we see the same teams A LOT, that no matter the order we go in the final results and difference between teams usually end up the same so I assume the judges are getting it right no matter what order they go in. So I'd like to give them the benefit of the doubt although I'm sure it's not perfect I think they genuinely try.




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Oh, I have no doubt they genuinely try, I just think that its a natural byproduct of the way cheer is scored. I think we should move to a gymnastics type system with a start value and deductions from that. It's definitely more objective. It would require more effort however. One panel of judges to watch the routine and determine a start value based on skills attempted and another to take deductions.

 

[Keep_Believing]

@TheVipersMom talking about world bids, at a recent comp. they went to WE Generals, WE BlackOps, and Stars Royal Cobras. I don't remember, did those teams compete towards the start or end of the world team divisions?

* I did watch all the videos. In my opinion, all 3 of those teams deserved the paid bids at that comp.