All-Star Grand Unified Theory Of Cheerology

[newcheerdad]

I really like #3 and #8.

This may be completely ridiculous (wouldn't be the first time) but bear with me...

One thing I thought about with regards to the discussion on crossovers is to used some kind of tiered registration system. Basically, at the beginning of the season a gym would register athletes in one of three "tiers". These "tiers" would determine what teams an athlete could participate in. I know USASF has an athlete credentialing system that could be leveraged to assist in this process, although I admit I'm no expert on itdon't know that much about it.

Registration would be up to the gym. It would be highly recommended that gyms fairly evaluate their athletes and register them according to their actual skill level.

But anyway, here's an example of a three-tier system:

Gold = Level 5+ athletes
Silver = Level 3/4 athletes
Bronze = Level 1/2 athletes

Some of the rules could include, but aren't limited to:

1. A Gold athlete could not compete on a Level 1 team, and Gold athletes could make up no more than 10% (an arbitrary number) of any Level 2 team. This ensures that elite cheerleaders aren't competing against beginning cheerleaders. I think this rule exists in some form at some competitions already.
2. Conversely, a Bronze athlete could not compete on a Level 5/6 team. This would be for the safety of the athlete.
3. At any time, the majority (over 50% - again, an arbitrary number) of any team must consist of athletes registered in that tier. So for example, a Level 3 team must have at least 51% of their team registered as Silver athletes, but the rest of the team could be made up of athletes from any tier. A Level 5 team must have 51% of their team registered as Gold athletes, but the remainder of the team could be Silver or Gold.

The rationale is that when you have crossovers, you shouldn't be crossing over a large portion of the team to a lower level simply for the purpose of winning a competition. (going back to my discussions in other threads about wanting teams to compete against teams of relatively equal skill level) However, it would allow small gyms that need to cross athletes the flexibility to do so. In fact, it's possible that the vast majority of teams already follow these guidelines.

(I accept these percentages may be way too high or too low, they're just out there are starting points.)

Now, that obvious question is what you do when people quit, get hurt, develop skills that merit a place on higher level team, etc. Gyms would have the ability to change an athlete's tier once per season, but would NOT be allowed to change an athlete's tier for Bronze to Gold (or vice-versa) during that season. An athlete that switches gyms in the middle of the season would also have the ability to have their tier changed to meet the needs of their new team. Any changes that go outside of those rules would need to be handled via an appeals/exception process.

I know it's long. But does it make the least bit of sense?

 

[NJ Coach]

I know it's long. But does it make the least bit of sense?

It does makes sense, and there's a lot about your theory that I like. I think once we have the athlete credentialing/registering set up, some version of this could definitely be possible.

Crossovers are the third rail of allstar cheer. I thought today's discussion about them was a step in the right direction. It didn't get heated and was reasonable, with lots of good points on both sides.

 

[newcheerdad]

It does makes sense, and there's a lot about your theory that I like. I think once we have the athlete credentialing/registering set up, some version of this could definitely be possible.

Crossovers are the third rail of allstar cheer. I thought today's discussion about them was a step in the right direction. It didn't get heated and was reasonable, with lots of good points on both sides.

It's heated in lots of different sports. I know that even in more established sports like soccer you can have tournaments where the level of play can vary widely. (a select team in Iowa might not be nearly at the level as a select team from Texas, for example) Cheer has the advantage of having defined levels of competition and should take advantage of that to keep the playing field even.

But ultimately, yes, mandatory athlete credentialing is the key.

 

[mstealtoyou]

But will the playing field ever really be "even"? I'm not convinced it will be. Isn't that the basic core nature of competitive sports?

 

[kyyyyyyxo]

My brother has grown up playing travel hockey. His junior year, prime recruiting season, he tore his meniscus, it was repaired and he immediately tore is ACL. He came back senior year weakly and did not get any good offers for college or junior (hockey players often play in the juniors until they are 21 and then go to college) and since his birthday qualified him. He super senior-ed and was much better and stronger then what he was his senior year. He got plenty of offers that year to go play in the juniors for another 3 years. He decided on his own to turn it down and go to a smaller college. He has been the captain there and leading the team and has been top 20 in the nation every year, sometimes he wishes he wouldve used his extra years but not always. The point is that he had the chance to continue if he wanted to. He could play amateur until age 18 or kind of 19. (Hockey is by birthday year) Then he could have played in the junior league which is basically still amateur until he was 21. He would then age out and either have to play in college, or men's league (kind of like the not-so-good open teams, beer league) and then after that the semi-pro and pro begin. So other sports do allow this. I really like comparing my brothers travel hockey to cheer, they are very similar. They pay tuition fees, they buy alot of equipment (uniforms) themselves, they pick their own rink, as rink they can be independent and choose the tournaments and games they want to play (or they can play in a league), they are registered with USA hockey, coaches are trained by USA hockey, refs are trained with USA hockey, and the progression is well established.


I on the other hand also tore my ACL junior year. I did not cheer senior year for similar reasons and I went to college. I started to cheer in college and I retore my acl at 18 going on 19. If i was a hockey player, i would have until i was 21 to compete (in the junior league) to prepare myself to cheer in college again. However, since open teams are I believe more competitive that college that doesnt exactly work for me. I instead will just got without cheering at all, my only opportunity would be to be on a not-so-great open team, kind of like mens league (aka the beer league) in hockey.

Its an interesting concept to think about. Other sports do allow something like this, basically gives you a few more years to get recruited for college, however until cheer is a title 9 sport and more scholarships are available that will probably not be needed. If that is what cheer wants as a future (more cheer scholarships), having some extra time to earn one might be something to start now.

 

[newcheerdad]

But will the playing field ever really be "even"? I'm not convinced it will be. Isn't that the basic core nature of competitive sports?

I think you need to do what you can to ensure - especially in youth sports - that kids are competing against their athletic peers. Doesn't mean that you won't have wide disparities in talent between teams in the same division at an event, but I also know that it does kids no favors to go into games or competitions knowing that even if they do their best they have zero chance of winning. That's why you don't see 5A football teams in Texas play 1A teams, for example.

 

[powerXbaby]

Well, if I was forced to quit allstar cheer when I went to college I would have to A) Quit cheer early altogether because there isn't really a college cheer team at ASU, and I don't want to cheer at another allstar program to do international team or B) Not graduate early because then I could continue to cheer. I don't think its fair to punish people who work hard to graduate early by taking cheer away from them.

In fact, when the divisions WERE by grade, I knew a couple people who failed on purpose so they could cheer one more year.

 

[cheermommaRN]

Well, if I was forced to quit allstar cheer when I went to college I would have to A) Quit cheer early altogether because there isn't really a college cheer team at ASU, and I don't want to cheer at another allstar program to do international team or B) Not graduate early because then I could continue to cheer. I don't think its fair to punish people who work hard to graduate early by taking cheer away from them.

In fact, when the divisions WERE by grade, I knew a couple people who failed on purpose so they could cheer one more year.

I'm sorry but what parent would continue to allow their child to cheer after they did something like that...or even failed in general?

 

[cheermommaRN]

Yeah, because they were 'forced' to graduate and move onto somewhere that had a strong collegiate/allstar program.

I agree with most of what you said, and highly encourage those who didn't to go back and watch what was said on the webcast. Even if you can't vote, this impacts you and those you care about and CLEARLY, from the way he constantly mentioned phone calls/emails, if you make your voices heard via your coaches, there are those willing to listen. I found it ridiculously informative and sometimes funny (also because I had the pleasure of reading the lovely MsTeal's fbook commentary on the side). And please, MORE SAD CELINE DION SONGS!!

One last thing: I was surprised at how a few gyms mentioned (and larger gyms at that), the desire to weigh more heavily on dance/cheer to bring back the performance aspect as a way to remove cookie-cutter/boring routines. I believe it was mentioned in conjunction with the time-increase rule change? I'm curious to hear people's opinions on that..(Basically, some gym owners made the argument FOR increasing the rule change as a way to add back in fluff; others countered that if they had more time, in accordance with score sheets they WOULDN'T add more time, they'd add in more skills; someone rebutted that to counter THAT problem, dance/motions/choreo should be weighed in more heavily)

I am so for this it makes my head hurt....elite cheer (level 5) has become very stagnant, it has become a checklist (fulls..check...three to back...check...pyramid to sad celine dion song...check) by adding in extra time just for this level and making it reflect in the scoresheet would bring back the showmanship that is now missing from our sport.
I tried to post it in another thread but it cleared (I am at work on a computer running IE 5 or something very old) I would love to see scoring become universal and standardized like gymnastics. Tecnical score (which is a combination of our current standing, running, jumps, motions, ect) + Artistic (choreography, transitions, performance) - Deductions= Final score (all judges score and then the highest and lowest score are dropped).

 

[mstealtoyou]

I think you need to do what you can to ensure - especially in youth sports - that kids are competing against their athletic peers. Doesn't mean that you won't have wide disparities in talent between teams in the same division at an event, but I also know that it does kids no favors to go into games or competitions knowing that even if they do their best they have zero chance of winning. That's why you don't see 5A football teams in Texas play 1A teams, for example.

I'm usually not this dense I promise (Don't ask Acedad he doesn't like me) but can you explain the difference in a wide disparity and zero chance of winning? If the disparity was wide enough that'd leave no chance of winning right?

Maybe I've just had too much cheer for 1 day. I'll sleep on it and come back in the morning after my coffee. LOL I really want to see your point.

 

[NowImFamous]

So a lot of these rules all hit at some of the same problems, but cannot individually make the necessary changes we all want. For a second if we were to forget the rules process and made these changes as a package deal:

6. A divison between club teams and open teams (you are one or the other) and once kids are in college they can only do open teams.

i agree with alot of your points except this one, i'm 20 and practice twice a week, have a job, and bust my butt everyday in the gym to have the skills to compete on a international team. i competed on a open 6 team last year and it def wasn't taken as seriously as say the international division this year, yes im on a team with younger kids, but i can be respectful and be a role model esp to the kids i coach. i come in the gym and do what i need to do and be just as much as a asset to the team as the 16 year old girls. yes i understand there needs to be a separation but i feel this division is such a perfect division for people like me who want to stay competitive in level 5, who aged out and still ABLE to do the skills. Open teams just weren't for me and i have a few friends in the same situation.

 

[CGAcheer]

So a lot of these rules all hit at some of the same problems, but cannot individually make the necessary changes we all want. For a second if we were to forget the rules process and made these changes as a package deal:

1. Large teams at 30, small at 20 Agree!
2. Large, Medium, and Small coed (15 and 6 on a large team, 4 on a small team)
I think 18 for large, throw in international and you have 6, 12, 18 so there aren't any huge jumps and you can throw in a few more boys

3. A universal balanced scoresheet that rewards ALL parts equally with difficulty and execution being factored in (as well as the coed stunt correction to push the boundaries) Agree!
4. No more small gym divisions, just the large and small gym award per competition Agree!
5. Full athlete registration system that keeps ages correctly AND once you compete for a gym at a USASF sanctioned event you are not allowed to switch programs for the entire season UNLESS released by the previous program Agree
6. A divison between club teams and open teams (you are one or the other) and once kids are in college they can only do open teams.
Disagree! Just leave divisions to age, once you throw in grade or graduation you run into all sorts of problems. I think 4.2 being 14+ or adding Open 4 can go here, I am definitely behind getting one of those through but not both.

7. Use the age cutoff by schools (the one we currently have in place) to decide our age cutoffs
August 1st would fit more in line with schools for us.

8. limit crossovers in 2 ways: an arbitrary percentage of the team (20% is fine.. 6 for large and 4 for small) and a kid is not allowed to do more than 2 routines in a day.
perhaps if they modified/clarified the percentage option to mean only 25% of one specific team can cross over from the same team (ex your Sr 3 team of 20 has 5 kids from your jr 4 and 5 kids from your jr 2 to added to the 10 true sr aged kids with running tucks but no layouts)
that way you can make a team for those sr kids those jr kids get the extra experience, people aren't crossing over the majority of a team down to a lower level team and it still allows for emergency alternates because you could then pull kids off of another team in your gym (in the example above you could pull a sr 4 kid to fill in if necessary)

9. This is a big one: design and modify the levels so that as athletes get older the levels themselves get less restrictive (so level 2 at mini cannot throw baskets, but level 2 in senior can do extended 1 leg liberties... this would allow a level 2 lifer [an athlete who's physical abilities will never let them pass level 2] to still have things to look forward to from age 6 to age 18. these adjustments could be made in all the levels)
I could get behind Sr and Jr level 1 having straight ride baskets, half level 1 legs and standing single handsprings.
Sr and Jr Level 2 having non twisting single trick baskets, extended 1 legs and jumps to handspring.
and youth 5 being restricted

 

[Ashley]

Well, if I was forced to quit allstar cheer when I went to college I would have to A) Quit cheer early altogether because there isn't really a college cheer team at ASU, and I don't want to cheer at another allstar program to do international team or B) Not graduate early because then I could continue to cheer. I don't think its fair to punish people who work hard to graduate early by taking cheer away from them.

In fact, when the divisions WERE by grade, I knew a couple people who failed on purpose so they could cheer one more year.

You not wanting to switch gyms isn't a reason to not change the rule. People age out and have no choice most of the time but to find another gym that has an international team.

 

[Ashley]

i agree with alot of your points except this one, i'm 20 and practice twice a week, have a job, and bust my butt everyday in the gym to have the skills to compete on a international team. i competed on a open 6 team last year and it def wasn't taken as seriously as say the international division this year, yes im on a team with younger kids, but i can be respectful and be a role model esp to the kids i coach. i come in the gym and do what i need to do and be just as much as a asset to the team as the 16 year old girls. yes i understand there needs to be a separation but i feel this division is such a perfect division for people like me who want to stay competitive in level 5, who aged out and still ABLE to do the skills. Open teams just weren't for me and i have a few friends in the same situation.

An international team is an open team.

 

[King]

You not wanting to switch gyms isn't a reason to not change the rule. People age out and have no choice most of the time but to find another gym that has an international team.

Don't say international, say Open. International teams are ONLY for countries that do not host Worlds.