All-Star How Would You Change All Star Scoring?

[BlueCat]

What's the score difference between a ...
-toss extension no spot
-rewind with a spot assisting the catch
-rewind to cupie with no assist from the spot
They all score in the 32-35 point range, and toss extension should be no where near the other two skills

I agree in general. The unassisted extension should be easily the lowest score of those. However, there generally needs to be more of a penalty for using assists. (Or reward for not using assists, however you want to look at it.) A rewind with an assist (catching/throwing/both) should be significantly lower than a true unassisted rewind.

There currently isn't enough credit given to completely unassisted coed stunts. This means that teams aren't that motivated to try them, because the risk is currently greater than the reward in most cases.

 

[WorkToWin]

It would need to be bigger than the difficulty difference. We would want to discourage coaches "padding" their skills sheet and hoping the judges didn't notice. I don't think it should be a huge deduction by any means (not nearly the same as a fall), but it needs to be enough to make the coach motivated to be accurate.

I agree with that, but what if it's the athlete's choice to not throw their skill at the last minute because of whatever reason? If they didn't have enough power over their first two backhand springs for example we take off more than the skill is worth? then again there would be no way to be able to tell a difference.

 

[MaximumAllStars]

I thought I would get some suggestions on ways to improve the scoring process for all star cheer.

1. All the scores are made public. EVERY number written down on any judge's sheet should be made available to the public. The comments are given only to the coaches of the teams.

-I think this would be great so long as it goes with number 4. When coaches know the scores of other teams, they compare it. If the coaches know the skills being thrown by everyone, it keeps everyone honest.

NEW:

4. Coaches turn in a skills declaration before their teams compete. The judges have a written list of the skill elements in the routine to use as a reference in deciding difficulty. This would be in the order that they are performed in the routine. (Execution would still be subjective, and a major part of the final score.) Penalties would be given if athletes changed their skills to something easier. (Athlete throws a tuck instead of a double, flyer singles down instead of doubles, etc.) A judge sitting with the deduction judge would watch video to determine compliance with written skills. Coaches would have the ability to make last-minute changes in the case of injury or water-down decisions.

-I think competitions and scoring would start to run slower because of this. I definitely see the positive of this, but that's a lot of pausing and skill counting.

I also would like to add that I'd like execution to either be less subjective or deductions become more severe. I think as an industry we are getting very precise when it comes to difficulty, but the truth is execution is still wide open. We talk about a L5 team doing straight up to stretch double down not being able to outscore a team doing a full up to one leg, hitting three skills with another major release and then doubling out of it in difficulty, but what if that same team with the straight to stretch hits it absolutely perfectly while the other team drops 1 of the 5 and bobbles another 2. That second team can still outscore the first team because of the subjectivity involved. What if execution was similar to what we do for difficulty? For example, if execution is out of 15, if you have 0 deductions you can score in the 12 - 15 range, lowest being 12. But if you have a large deduction like a drop, or a tumble fall, you are now in the 10 - 13 range.

 

[imrichhowboutu]

That is "double jeopardy". You can't hit someone twice for the same mistake.

I think execution should vary by the skills in the level. If you are doing straight up stretch full down in level 5 and do them flawlessy, I wouldn't want to give you a perfect execution or timing score. Anyone can make 5 stunts go straight up at the same time and do something easy.

 

[cheerheart4life]

I agree in general. The unassisted extension should be easily the lowest score of those. However, there generally needs to be more of a penalty for using assists. (Or reward for not using assists, however you want to look at it.) A rewind with an assist (catching/throwing/both) should be significantly lower than a true unassisted rewind.

There currently isn't enough credit given to completely unassisted coed stunts. This means that teams aren't that motivated to try them, because the risk is currently greater than the reward in most cases.

I definetly agree. With coed stunting becoming more utilized in routines, there needs to be better differences between the scores you recieve for each skill. Teams with ball-up stretches should recieve more points than a team with toss extensions. The thing I want to know is should a team with assisted rewinds recieve more points than non assisted toss cupies or toss stretches?
hmm... because assisted is normally easier but if the skill is harder than would that affect the score?

 

[imrichhowboutu]

I definetly agree. With coed stunting becoming more utilized in routines, there needs to be better differences between the scores you recieve for each skill. Teams with ball-up stretches should recieve more points than a team with toss extensions. The thing I want to know is should a team with assisted rewinds recieve more points than non assisted toss cupies or toss stretches?
hmm... because assisted is normally easier but if the skill is harder than would that affect the score?

Keep in mind that ball ups are easier than toss skills.

Coed Ballups were designed for those who can't toss stunts to the top.

 

[BlueCat]

I agree with that, but what if it's the athlete's choice to not throw their skill at the last minute because of whatever reason? If they didn't have enough power over their first two backhand springs for example we take off more than the skill is worth? then again there would be no way to be able to tell a difference.

I view that as a mistake. (Not as big a one as if they had thrown a skill and busted, but it is doing something different than choreographed.) There would be a bigger penalty for attempting it and busting than there would be for balking.

 

[Ceajhgirly18]

number 5 is a MUST!!! the coaches need to know if what they think is harder than something else really is. and i like number 4, but think that would b hard to do in many cases. but overall the judging needs to b MUCH LESS political! i mean the judging at worlds IMO was terrible!!!!

 

[MaximumAllStars]

That is "double jeopardy". You can't hit someone twice for the same mistake.

I think execution should vary by the skills in the level. If you are doing straight up stretch full down in level 5 and do them flawlessy, I wouldn't want to give you a perfect execution or timing score. Anyone can make 5 stunts go straight up at the same time and do something easy.

Good point, but wouldn't your reasoning of not giving a perfect execution score also be considered "double jeopardy"? As they would be hit for the difficulty as well.

From a personal standpoint, I just feel that execution should stand alone. Your execution score should be based off of the skills you do. If you go out and stand there for 2 minutes and 30 seconds, completely tight and not moving, you should get a perfect execution score, while obviously you score nothing on difficulty.

 

[cheerheart4life]

Keep in mind that ball ups are easier than toss skills.

Coed Ballups were designed for those who can't toss stunts to the top.

really? wow i think that toss stunts are easier! good to know though, thanks!

 

[BlueCat]

Keep in mind that ball ups are easier than toss skills.

Coed Ballups were designed for those who can't toss stunts to the top.

I think that if the girl is good, ball ups can be a bit easier for the base than a straight toss. However, the ball up is harder for the girl, IMO, than a straight toss. I would call it a wash overall.

 

[yojaehs]

I think that if the girl is good, ball ups can be a bit easier for the base than a straight toss. However, the ball up is harder for the girl, IMO, than a straight toss. I would call it a wash overall.

I do agree with the overall of what you are saying, in that skills need a ranking system i.e. the A,B,C ranking that gymnastics uses, yeah yeah yeah we aren't gymnastics but if they are using it and it works, why not adopt it?

 

[Deleted member 15]

I do agree with the overall of what you are saying, in that skills need a ranking system i.e. the A,B,C ranking that gymnastics uses, yeah yeah yeah we aren't gymnastics but if they are using it and it works, why not adopt it?

Start making it.

 

[INeverStopCheering]

3 Things I want to see:

1. As Kingston said, all judges are hired out from the USASF. Honestly, it protects the EPs. People are less likely to question the merit of a judges score if it's coming from a USASF judge over some guy you've never heard of. It also takes away the grey area of what the USASF is responsible for and what the EP is responsible for. Which brings me to point 2...

2. Every competition is required to have a USASF non-judge official on the premises the entire competition. This "event staff" person will take away the grey area in whose job it is to enforce what rules. For example the USASF says that you can't practice on hard surfaces or concrete. But we've all seen it happen and EP's staff just turns the blind eye. It is this person's job to handle safety and rules matters off the mat.

3. Coaches should be able to review their teams scores before awards. This eliminates the problem that after awards their might be some sort of error, mathematical or otherwise. A lot of comps won't allow you to contest scores once the awards are given out. This way the coach would have to sign off saying there were no errors on their team's score sheet.

 

[King]

To make things less costly for smaller events you ONLY have to have an official USASF 'crew' when the event is a classified Nationals. Nationals are the only event at which you can hand out bids. Everything else can NOT carry the name nationals.