All-Star Inconsistent Judging

[travnation80]

Trust me you should def come next year it will give you a chance to see where the industry is truly going and have one on one conversations with people and give their true feeling from EP's to Gym Owners to the average choreographer and or judge for that matter. People often forget about the Scoring Grid a lot of gyms look at the score sheet and go " we can compete because they are giving X amount of points in these categories and our routine is strong in those areas" they forget to look at the scoring grid and what it truly takes to get those points and max out. Trust me I can tell you time and time again i have seen teams with great pyramids and they are very difficult but they are a level lower than what it is suppose to be this more so happens in the level4/5 areas and then they dont score well and they are wondering why?

No, I was not. However, I cannot imagine an entire industry voting to put into effect a scoresheet that it completely skill-based and allows NO creativity or choreography. I highly doubt EPs would vote for that either. I could be wrong...that is just my gut talking at this point.

 

[yojaehs]

Trust me you should def come next year it will give you a chance to see where the industry is truly going and have one on one conversations with people and give their true feeling from EP's to Gym Owners to the average choreographer and or judge for that matter. People often forget about the Scoring Grid a lot of gyms look at the score sheet and go " we can compete because they are giving X amount of points in these categories and our routine is strong in those areas" they forget to look at the scoring grid and what it truly takes to get those points and max out. Trust me I can tell you time and time again i have seen teams with great pyramids and they are very difficult but they are a level lower than what it is suppose to be this more so happens in the level4/5 areas and then they dont score well and they are wondering why?

What ever do you mean? Bahaha JK, JK, JK!!

 

[travnation80]

im going to get you back @yojaehs

 

[5-6-7-8]

I think those saying that a universal score sheet is the first "step" in addressing the judging issue are right. Anything else is just (as @kingston said) a "band-aid."

Once that is established, I like the idea of having a subjective and objective portion of the scoresheet. The objective portion would have established values for components such as quantity performing a skill (and that quantity would be % based, not just a number to help even out any issues with a team of 12 competing against the team of 20 for example for both stunting / tumbling.) How that flushes out, I'll leave up to the experts. I do know I agree with someone who said that the skill of "hiding" or "tricking" judges shouldn't really be rewarded (at least not in the "objective" part of the scoresheet. The subjective portion would be the artistic component (creativity, wow factor, hiding / tricking, etc.) There of course is of course a lot of wiggle room within the subjective portion, but by hopefully giving out a portion of a score based on objective criteria, it would minimize some of the volatile subjectivity.

I am OK with event producers weighting categories differently.

As long as the rules are defined and clear, teams can be formed accordingly.

(And of course I am certainly no expert!! I know there are flaws inherent in this, but I think my long winded point was that the issue with inconsistent judging is a result of the varying scoresheets.)

 

[BlueCat]

I agree that a universal scoresheet would have the biggest long-term benefit of all of the changes being discussed. However, to simply sit by and wait for that to happen without working on any other part of the process is not a good plan, IMO. This is especially true considering that the main powers-that-be among the EPs are opposed to a universal scoresheet. It could be years before they finally see the light.

 

[5-6-7-8]

True.

Unfortunately, it seems that everything comes back to the EPs, and they don't seem all that interested in changing? Even making the scores more visible would be a step in the right direction, but again, back the the EPs to do so.

The only way to get to the EPs (short of actually having some form of governing agency) is though the almighty dollar. So until gyms start demanding this of the EPs, nothing much may happen.

 

[CGAcheer]

I will just share that until you are on a panel judging (if you have never done it) you will never understand what Judges do or go through trust me. As far as a Universal Score sheet in terms of a number scale i'm closely in favor of, but a Universal Score sheet for all companies and competitions will just move us towards no creativity at all, which is what we have now just look back at some divisions at worlds this past season. Plus why would i go to one competition or company over another if its all the same score sheet? what's the point?

there are soooo many other differences between competitions besides score sheets- Venue, Size, staging and production, awards, prestige, location, date, price...

 

[King]

there are soooo many other differences between competitions besides score sheets- Venue, Size, staging and production, awards, prestige, location, date, price...

Agreed! That's how events SHOULD separate themselves from each other. It is how all the other sport tournaments separate themselves. The Fiesta Bowl doesn't have touchdowns worth 10 points while the Rose Bowl is more traditional and it's worth 6 points. They just put on the best 'football' game production they can and let the sport be the same.

Why don't EP's understand this?

 

[5-6-7-8]

Agreed! That's how events SHOULD separate themselves from each other. It is how all the other sport tournaments separate themselves. The Fiesta Bowl doesn't have touchdowns worth 10 points while the Rose Bowl is more traditional and it's worth 6 points. They just put on the best 'football' game production they can and let the sport be the same.

Why don't EP's understand this?

Because they don't *have* to?

Seems no one is demanding it of the EPs (no one meaning the "big" gyms.) If the consumer demands change (and takes its money elsewhere), then change can happen. I realize boycotting events isn't necessarily a wise choice for most gyms' business however. The ones with the "power" to effect some change in this department are the bigger gyms (especially with the rise of the multi-location mega gyms.) However, don't we usually read on here how it is perceived that the big gyms are the ones on the receiving end of a favorable judging bias? So if that logic holds true, then of course there won't be change demanded of the EPs.

Craptastic All Stars with 2 teams really isn't going to make too much noise when boycotting an event.

 

[PrimeTime]

Because they don't *have* to?

Seems no one is demanding it of the EPs (no one meaning the "big" gyms.) If the consumer demands change (and takes its money elsewhere), then change can happen. I realize boycotting events isn't necessarily a wise choice for most gyms' business however. The ones with the "power" to effect some change in this department are the bigger gyms (especially with the rise of the multi-location mega gyms.) However, don't we usually read on here how it is perceived that the big gyms are the ones on the receiving end of a favorable judging bias? So if that logic holds true, then of course there won't be change demanded of the EPs.

Craptastic All Stars with 2 teams really isn't going to make too much noise when boycotting an event.

How do you choose which competitions to go to then and which ones to boycott? No one follows a universal score sheet and even the big gyms can't go an entire season without competing. Just curious

 

[5-6-7-8]

How do you choose which competitions to go to then and which ones to boycott? No one follows a universal score sheet and even the big gyms can't go an entire season without competing. Just curious

I guess that is part of the problem as well. That's what I meant by it not being a good business decision for gyms. "Hi come try out for our gym, we are going to boycott all competitions this year!!"

I think we have a circular argument going with where change can be initiated...should the EPs start it, gyms demand it, a governing body to put it into "law."

 

[BlueCat]

Because they don't *have* to?

Seems no one is demanding it of the EPs (no one meaning the "big" gyms.) If the consumer demands change (and takes its money elsewhere), then change can happen. I realize boycotting events isn't necessarily a wise choice for most gyms' business however. The ones with the "power" to effect some change in this department are the bigger gyms (especially with the rise of the multi-location mega gyms.) However, don't we usually read on here how it is perceived that the big gyms are the ones on the receiving end of a favorable judging bias? So if that logic holds true, then of course there won't be change demanded of the EPs.

Craptastic All Stars with 2 teams really isn't going to make too much noise when boycotting an event.

I would like to think of us as somewhat of a "big" gym and there aren't too many people who have tried harder to have more scoring transparency and a universal scoresheet.

The bigger EPs view the competition landscape as a zero-sum game. They basically think that any conceivable thing that benefits a different EP basically hurts them. (example: better judging and a universal scoresheet) I disagree with this, but I understand their point of view.

 

[PrimeTime]

I guess that is part of the problem as well. That's what I meant by it not being a good business decision for gyms. "Hi come try out for our gym, we are going to boycott all competitions this year!!"

I think we have a circular argument going with where change can be initiated...should the EPs start it, gyms demand it, a governing body to put it into "law."

I would assume that if the EPs aren't willing to budge and the gyms can't do too much as far as boycotting then it would need to come from the governing body......is it just the waiting game now until something happens? It's too bad if that's our only option

 

[Katybugmom]

I know, fierce board should become an EP and run an awesome comp, great venue, reasonably priced, fair judges, public scoresheets, etc. Then we can all just go to fierceboard comps.

 

[yojaehs]

USASF AND Gyms both have the power. There are enough competitions out there to choose those that follow a "particular" guideline. USASF CAN require that if an event wants to be a USASF sanctioned event that the EP MUST follow a "guideline" (universal score sheet) but USASF is mostly all talk when it comes to enforcing guidelines. It is nice to hear that some gyms are taking some power into their own hands at least.