All-Star Is It A Failure To Not Progress?

[Just-a-Mom]

"the expectation would be to graduate from one level to the next each season. If we can't make that happen" ... "we failed as their teachers."

She did not say the student was a failure, nor was she blaming the student. She was blaming herself. She used the word fail to continue her analogy to elementary school. When you do not progress a grade, you fail the grade and repeat it. There is no other term for it. She was not calling the athlete a failure.
CEA sets the bar high for their athletes. The athletes are motivated, work hard and strive to meet the high expectations. I like that, and I wish I had been coached under a similar system in dance and other aspects of my life.

Many gyms set the bar high for their athletes, including the one we're at. And we do like it. Not really sure what that has to do with this quote though. I actually like CEA just fine; I was offended by this post. I see that she is blaming herself (and her staff). But first off, I am clearly not the only person who took it the way that I did, given the number of posts here. Secondly, quite frankly, I don't think that anyone should be called a failure because someone didn't progress to the next level.

To be perfectly honest, the pink part was not really the part that upset me - I merely thought it could have been worded better, but I think we're all guilty of posting things that could be worded better. The part I had in green ("It is funny to me to see the celebration that exists on teams of athletes who have been level 2 for 3 or 4 years. To us, that is the equivalent of celebrating the same spelling test words for the 4th year in a row and being excited about knowing them.") had me beside myself. I'm sorry, but I'm not really sure why we aren't talking about that part more. I've tried to read the whole post again and again to wrap my head around why that part was even necessary...and to try to see a different intent, but I keep coming up blank.

Saying that you find a team celebrating a win "funny" is just rude. No way to spin that. I mean let's say I came on here and said something like "OMG...I saw someone say they were happy to get third @ Worlds and I thought it was so funny. They got first last year and had so many of the same team members. Isn't that like learning the same spelling words for a test and getting some wrong the second time?" Wouldn't I be strung up by my thumbs? How would that be different? It's rude to say someone is "funny" for celebrating a win. Can someone pleeeease tell me how that was ok to say?

 

[Just-a-Mom]

As I said above - with all due respect to @Just-a-Mom, whose opinion I generally agree with - I'm not sure there's anything else productive that will come from this thread.

There are two distinct points of view with regards to Courtney's statement, and I'm willing to accept the premise that there is some over-analysis of her words going on. I think also we have to understand that comparing CEA to most all-star gyms is really comparing apples to oranges.

Rather than risk starting another heated exchange, maybe this thread is better off being locked?

I agree with the over analysis part - I think she probably didn't expect a 6 page thread. But to some extent I feel like if you post a thread saying "Ask me questions and I will answer you" and you get HUNDREDS of replies, that should tell you that your words mean something to people. If I posted a thread with that title, it would be filled with crickets chirping. So I think given who she is in this business and given how many people are so clearly fascinated with her business, it's to be expected that if she says something that people find offensive there is going to be backlash.

 

[cheeringfor3]

Saying that you find a team celebrating a win "funny" is just rude. No way to spin that. I mean let's say I came on here and said something like "OMG...I saw someone say they were happy to get third @ Worlds and I thought it was so funny. They got first last year and had so many of the same team members. Isn't that like learning the same spelling words for a test and getting some wrong the second time?" Wouldn't I be strung up by my thumbs? How would that be different? It's rude to say someone is "funny" for celebrating a win. Can someone pleeeease tell me how that was ok to say?

Well said.

 

[kristenthegreat]

It's rude to say someone is "funny" for celebrating a win. Can someone pleeeease tell me how that was ok to say?

I think I may have found a similar analogy to what she's trying to say..because in some aspects I can (oh god, I'm about to get my head chopped off)..agree with her.

When I competed volleyball, there were some teams we went against that we had ZERO business competing against. We were so much better than them that I felt serious pain every time we scored because you could see the frustration on THEIR faces. When we won, our celebration was happy, but when people came up to us and said 'great game' afterward, it sorta felt hollow. Or like when I competed gymnastics and had to stay back again for level 4 part II, when I won bars, it just didn't feel the same. I did just as well and was working higher skills and stuff, but when I got to compete I had to do the skills I was doing for the second year. I SHOULD be winning, because I've had a whole year to get better at them (granted, not everyone can win all the time for X reason, but my scores should be high because it's the same skill set). While a cheerleader might never be level 5, if you've been level 2 as a group for 3-4 years, you SHOULD be winning/doing very well, because it's generally been the same skill set (assuming our system hasn't changed, which it has). Now, if it's one particular athlete, that athlete should, after 3-4 years (if they're not moving up) be improving vastly at everything else (I'm talking say, 11+ years of age and have been doing this a while, we all know how crazy the tinys/minis can be ).

Think of how annoyed people get when large chunks of athletes bump down a level or 3 for comps. Why do we get mad? Because they've already passed that level, and they should (hypothetically) have advanced passed all areas of that skill set. They SHOULD place well in that instance (and often do), because those skills can be done with better technique. That sort of 'unfairness'..that's where I think she's coming from. I also imagine it applying to older level athletes (and not the wee ones, although she didn't specify). It's the EXPECTATION of excellence and how that changes over years.

 

[StarshipTrooper]

Courtney is a classic extrovent, meaning she expresses her opinion from her own pov and does not instinctively incorporate different or opposite povs to moderate her opinions. I think the term funny means foreign or unusual, not the norm. She does not mean comical and I don't think it is meant to be demeaning. I know her better than everyone on this thread, and I'm virtually certain that is the correct context.

 

[AllHeartxo3]

Not to get in the middle of this discussion, but I can't believe this thread is still up haha

 

[Just-a-Mom]

Courtney is a classic extrovent, meaning she expresses her opinion from her own pov and does not instinctively incorporate different or opposite povs to moderate her opinions. I think the term funny means foreign or unusual, not the norm. She does not mean comical and I don't think it is meant to be demeaning. I know her better than everyone on this thread, and I'm virtually certain that is the correct context.

How is that better than comical? Either way she is saying that these teams should not be celebrating their win because they were already that level last year.

Sooooo... in all fairness SE should really stop being so happy when they win comps. I mean seriously...weren't they Level 5 last year? It's just foreign and unusual that they keep jumping up and down, all happy about winning all season when they already won those same comps last year, in that same level, with those same girls. (Just being facetious, but does it make sense this way?)

 

[kristenthegreat]

Not to get in the middle of this discussion, but I can't believe this thread is still up haha

I actually think it hits on a point of the issue of legitimacy. Think about gymnastics: there are tons of programs you pay for, with various levels of skill/competition. There are YMCA gymnastics competitions, private gymnastics, etc, all with varying degrees of skill level/competitiveness/focus. Do you want more fun, but a healthy dose of competition? Go here. Do you want a more focused aspect but still not super crazy? Go there. If the advent of sport legitimacy is upon us, and cheers insert into Olympic competition is at stake (with all the fun stuff that comes with being a well-known olympic level athlete), I definitely think that type of gym separation will continue to emerge. Even now, you've got the smaller local gyms and the bigger World Champion gyms..

 

[StarshipTrooper]

How is that better than comical? Either way she is saying that these teams should not be celebrating their win because they were already that level last year.

Sooooo... in all fairness SE should really stop being so happy when they win comps. I mean seriously...weren't they Level 5 last year? It's just foreign and unusual that they keep jumping up and down, all happy about winning all season when they already won those same comps last year, in that same level, with those same girls. (Just being facetious, but does it make sense this way?)

In all fairness, no. Level 5 is as far as they can go right now. The difference is obvious. If there is an axe you need to grind, grind away. She and her staff feel they have failed the child and the family if the athlete does not advance in levels under her instruction. For SE she feels like she has failed if they don't win where they are competing and are not World Champions at the end. That is who she is, and any other philosophy is foreign, unusual or funny to her. Obviously not to you, but to her. Different courses for different horses. That is all.

 

[Just-a-Mom]

@kristenthegreat - I see where you were coming from in your post (the one with the volleyball analogy). But I kind of feel like she - and the rest of us during all 7 pages of this thread - weren't referring to Level 4 athletes competing at Level 2 for 4 years. We're talking about kids who genuinely are holding onto the same basic skill set over the years. Maybe it's cleaner. Maybe that standing BHS progressed to a ROBHS, but you'd still be the same level. But she very clearly said progressing up a level every year. So we're talking about Level 2 teams with kids like mine and @CharlotteASMom 's (and quite a few others in this thread apparently) that stay that level for a couple years. It's "funny" (or odd, or weird, or not the norm, or unusual, or foreign, or whatever word you want to use) for them to be happy with that?

 

[Just-a-Mom]

In all fairness, no. Level 5 is as far as they can go right now. The difference is obvious. If there is an axe you need to grind, grind away. She and her staff feel they have failed the child and the family if the athlete does not advance in levels under her instruction. For SE she feels like she has failed if they don't win where they are competing and are not World Champions at the end. That is who she is, and any other philosophy is foreign, unusual or funny to her. Obviously not to you, but to her. Different courses for different horses. That is all.

No axe to grind. I saw something that offended me and stated why. I just thought it was rude and dismissive to HUNDREDS of kids who bust their butts and are never going to be SE material. What I am saying is the same thing you are saying for SE - the difference is I'm applying it to all levels. Level 5 is the highest they can go so they want to be the BEST BEST BEST Level 5 team they can be. They want to improve and win - despite the fact that they might spend 4, 5, or even 6 years on that same Level 5 team, they want to improve and perfect those Level 5 skills. I was just asking why is it odd for a Level 2 team to want the same thing?

 

[Mamarazzi]

@Just-a-Mom , I understand what you're saying about the "funny" remark being rude, BUT, what I read in her statement was not that if you have a child on a level 2 team, they shouldn't be proud. It was not that a reigning Worlds champ shouldn't be proud if they don't win again. What I read was: You are a level (whatever) and have not progressed past that point for at least 2 years. I (coach speaking) have not figured out the right way to teach, inspire and guide you, obviously, during that 2 years. I (coach) have failed.
And the "funny" remark may have been her manner of speaking as a gym owner and coach regarding HER peers. She refers to "teams celebrating," and does that not include the coaches and gym owners? When "we" celebrate a win, "we" look at how far that team has come from what they were, and "we" celebrate the progression from crap to crown.
Just think - M goes to her new school in the fall. She reads a book, which she read last year at her old school, and the year before that at her old, old school. She takes a test on it and scores perfectly. Do you jump up and down and go buy ice cream? No, you tell her, "Good job," and think that she'd better have gotten an A on a test about a book she's read 3 flippin times...So what do you tell her when she starts crying because you don't buy her ice cream? "That was an easy A. You knew that book. You got As on the last 2 tests about the same book. I expect an A this time." And THEN you have an issue with the teacher for not recognizing that the child can do this with her eyes closed, and challenge her. Therein lies the "coach's" failure.

 

[StarshipTrooper]

[quote="Just-a-Mom, post: 383926 It's "funny" (or odd, or weird, or not the norm, or unusual, or foreign, or whatever word you want to use) for them to be happy with that?[/quote]

Not for you, your children or anyone else who feels the way you do, or the gyms you choose to attend. For her, it is, and one of the reasons I do like her is her blunt honesty about how she feels and how she runs her gym. More than a few do NOT LIKE how she states her opinions, and apprently you are one of them. I don't think she is judging you, your child or your decisions, she is telling you her feelings on a thread that asked her what she thought about why there are so many Level 5 teams in her gym. If you choose to be offended, I suggest you should not be, she is speaking for herself and how she feels, not about you or how you should feel. I knew it would be taken that way, and I'm glad it was discussed.

 

[Just-a-Mom]

:deadhorse:<----Me, I know. But I stumbled on the thread late, so I gotta get all my thoughts out in one page.

@Mamarazzi - regarding your book analogy: that would apply if we were talking about naturally talented Level 5 skilled kids not progressing (and yes, I just likened M's reading to a level 5 athlete's skills ) M is very advanced in school, so if she is reading the same book for 3 years there is something wrong. Now J on the other hand could read the same book 3 times, take 3 tests, and if she got A's on all 3 of them you're darned right I'd take her for ice cream. But more than likely what would happen is that she'd get a D, then a B, then an A - same book, she's just taking longer to get the hang of it. Because school is not something she progresses at quickly. So if your child progresses quickly, good - move 'em along. If they don't, I don't see anything wrong with them staying where they are and improving that. Because more than likely that child that is staying Level 2 for 4 years is probably a significantly better Level 2 now than 4 years ago.

I totally "get" you guys' explanation. That she's saying as a coach she feels she isn't doing her job if the kids aren't progressing. And that she doesn't understand when she sees teams and coaches celebrating when they are just kind of stagnating and not really progressing, other than in age division. I guess my issue is that I don't think that's what's happening - I'm sure these teams and athletes are progressing. Just not up whole levels. Maybe they're just improving within their level - and that's not worth celebrating?

Believe it or not, not every kid even wants to be Level 5. They might just love cheering. They might just love trophies and jackets. They might have crazy moms that are forcing them to live out their unfulfilled dreams. They might even just love giant bows. But that doesn't make the coach a failure. That makes a really fierce Senior 2 team.

But I guess I'm just different. I don't run a giant gym with a gazillion kids. I run a small, tiny household with 2 kids. And I would never dream of thinking they were funny for celebrating an accomplishment of any type, even one that they'd done before. And I wouldn't dream of telling them they should choose something else to love because they aren't going to be elite level in this.

ETA: @StarshipTrooper - I am also someone that expresses my opinions bluntly. And lots of people don't like it. My opinion is that that was rude and dismissive. I thought a lot of things she said in that thread were rude and dismissive. No harm, no foul. Guess my kids won't be teal...but they're only level 2 for the 4th year, so I guess we were in no danger of that anyway.

 

[SharkDad]

@newcheerdad states it well. There are not many more ways for this thread to go. I don't have a different analogy, but I can offer a slightly different perspective to look at this.

Courtney said "It is funny to me to see the celebration that exists on teams of athletes who have been level 2 for 3 or 4 years." I would expect she means that out of an entire team of athletes at any level you should reasonably expect to have at least some of them progress to the next level. Again she doesn't speak of individual kids failing, but rather relates it to their coaching.

She vary rarely ANYWHERE makes specific comments about any individual children, usually speaks in larger concepts and these types of analogies (which can be taken in many different contexts), but she FREQUENTLY brings inspiration to kids and parents she deals with at all levels.

I don't know Courtney near as well as @StarshipTrooper or many of the other Kernersville parents, but I do know who she is pretty well and I hope you can just take my opinion at face value: Regardless of the analogy she chooses for specific point in her own mind, Courtney and all of the other coaches care a great deal about ALL athletes AT ALL LEVELS. You can see it in their speech and how much they open up their lives and show genuine feeling to each and every athelete wearing a teal uniform, or any other cheerleading looking for guidance for that matter.