All-Star New Changes - Divisions For Worlds

[Cheerfun2]

@Emily I wish I could shimmy your post multiple times.
I really don't agree with the above poster that said the XS teams should not be called World Champions. That's like saying that the winner of large senior shouldn't be called World Champions because they had too many athletes to compete in small senior.
No large gyms are not going to dismantle their large teams to compete XS but when you have a huge amount of level 5 athletes to chose from it gives you a lot more leeway to create strong teams. I absolutely believe if CA/TG/Cali decided to field an XS team next year, they would decimate any of the current gyms that competed in those divisions because their "worst" level 5 athletes may still be better than the "best" athletes at the small gym.

But to your last sentence...IF that were the case, which I am not sure it would be, the current gyms in that division WOULDN’T be the best in the world, and shouldn’t be a Worlds Champion. Right?

 

[Lisa Seye]

From their homepage, they have 9 gyms just in NC with over 1000 athletes - that is most definitely a mega-gym.

5 in NC, 3 in Virginia, 1 MD, 1 TN, 1 IL

 

[Lisa Seye]

I get confused on what is the difference between international small/large coed 5 and open small/large coed 5?

 

[UCFKnights07]

There are dominant clubs/teams/gyms in any sport. I don't buy that they are the reason small gyms can't compete. I've been involved with enough gyms to know that many gyms (not all as some are restricted by rural location or low income demographic region) stay small and not competitive because their gym owners are terrible business owners and their coaching staff is sub par. I don't think there are as many athletes who leave gyms "to win worlds" as people think. If you have a solid, competitive program where your athletes are progressing and feel like they are valued there is a good chance your gym will be successful without being a mega gym. I find it ironic that some of the same people who complain about the "everyone gets a trophy" mentality with the creation of so many divisions and "there are too many bids given out to undeserving teams" are also saying "we need to even the playing field for gyms who can't compete in regular divisions", and "make a division just for small gyms but don't call it D2 because that cheapens the win". If you want Worlds to be the best of the best then I don't see how you can have it both ways.

i just saw the XS division as a good way to semi fix the problem of how large small coed and small allgirl divisions were. Did it fix the problem? idk, did it? But thats what i initially looked at it as.
its a win/lose situation, it helps smaller gyms, but it pisses off larger gyms who could possibly form an XS team with extra people from tryouts instead of turning them away. But by opening it up, the smaller gyms will eventually go back to being at the bottom and possibly never making it pass prelims due to cutoff limits. And thats what i firmly believe will happen, and it sucks in my opinion.

 

[luv2cheer92]

I get confused on what is the difference between international small/large coed 5 and open small/large coed 5?

Open 5 (small/large coed and all girl) is brand new this year. I don't believe all of the details on the differences have been announced yet. The biggest difference is that Open 5 will fall under USASF and International 5 will continue to fall under IASF as it has been. Rumors of the return of the IASF rules that were attempted to go into place last year to limit baskets/tumbling would not affect Open teams. Also one potential difference could be that Open divisions could move on top 10 period at Worlds opposed to top 3 from each country. Again, that's mostly speculation at this point.

 

[katiecheer8]

But to your last sentence...IF that were the case, which I am not sure it would be, the current gyms in that division WOULDN’T be the best in the world, and shouldn’t be a Worlds Champion. Right?

Its possible I am misinterpreting your post and I apologize if I am but it seems like you are attempting to discredit both the teams that won in the extra small divisions this past season. They did beat the best of the best in their divisions so they are the best and are world champions. I don't think a lack of a big name team in the division makes that win count for anything less than the other divisions. Also we have no idea how any of the new teams will compare to those who were in the division in that past so who knows the previous world champions could remain the best even with the addition of other gyms and teams.

 

[Lablover]

From their homepage, they have 9 gyms just in NC with over 1000 athletes - that is most definitely a mega-gym.

That’s across multiple states. That isn’t only NC.

 

[5-6-7-8]

I just checked the first worlds…there was all girl and coed. The next year, Small All Girl, Large All Girl, Small Coed, Large Coed. I'm guessing that first split happened because someone said, "wait, we 18 girl worlds athletes, but we can't compete against 30-whatever." Just about every year since, the number of divisions have changed / increased.

I am going to assume the original intent was to create something akin to HS and college athletic divisions (basically a means to level the playing field between gyms with access to varied resources / talent pools.) I don't think the intent was to just create additional divisions that the big and mega gyms could fill up (which is what it has become.) Division I football teams don't also get to field a Division II and Division III team.

In an ideal world, I would love to see S, M, L but only one worlds team per gym location (or maybe it is DI, DII, DIII and each has all girl / coed where a gym/brand can't compete DI AND DII/DIII.) If we can't have that, leave XS as it is.

 

[Cheerfun2]

Its possible I am misinterpreting both of your posts and I apologize if I am but it seems like you are attempting to discredit both the teams that won in the extra small divisions this past season. They did beat the best of the best in their divisions so they are the best and are world champions. I don't think a lack of a big name team in the division makes that win count for anything less than the other divisions. Also we have no idea how any of the new teams will compare to those who were in the division in that past so who knows the previous world champions could remain the best even with the addition of other gyms and teams.

No, I absolutely was doing the opposite, actually. I found the sentence in the post I quoted to be discrediting to the teams that competed in that division this year. It basically said they could not expect to win if they had to compete against the mega gyms “leftover” level 5 athletes. I think the teams in the division this year were excellent and would be competitive even if the division lost its restrictions.

 

[Wendy Trekster]

For all those suggesting a D2 Worlds, where does that leave the gyms that aren't D2 who can field a true level 5 team with only enough athletes to field an XS?

Unfortunately, the Medium gyms will be in the same situation with D2 split. The best they can do is make their XS team very selective, fielding the best possible team. If every gym did that in every division, not just Worlds, we'd have true champions, but stacking is unfortunately a reality in this industry. And with gyms like World Cup (Freehold) I believe they will continue to field their renowned teams SS and O with the best possible athletes. Fielding a right-sized team with the remaining athletes, like Suns in whatever division they end up, if it's XS, then it's XS. I think the medium gyms will absolutely be competitive if the mega gyms take that approach. One can only hope.

I think a bigger trend will be the medium gyms stacking their XS and fielding another team with their 2nd string.

D2 Summit was a great move by USASF and D2 Worlds would absolutely be appropriate for all divisions. Baseball, Basketball, Football, Soccer, Softball, Volleyball, etc. etc. etc. on the school and college level all divide by program size.

 

[Wendy Trekster]

Or here's another can of worms - if we were to base cheer clubs similar to other sports, it would be divided by geography, having Eastern, Western, etc. conferences. And even divisions based on 'level' like A, AA, AAA.

Much like the Red Sox v. Yankees rivalry, there would be local championships that would end up being more competitive than national championships.

 

[FlippysMommy]

Frankly, there should be a D2 Worlds - you can have it the same weekend. Once everyone splits out, it should be about the same numbers as you get now, maybe a little more, but not much. The release of the XS's may have been a preparation for just that.

But with Worlds and Summit, I also think there should be a minimum score (like, say 94) to get a bid. Some of these divisions are enormous for no good reason, so it doesn't really reflect that it's a Championship.

THIS!!!!!

 

[AndyT_T]

The main issue I had with X-Small is that you now have XS teams claiming they’re one of the “best in the world”, when reality is that the heavy majority of the world wasn’t even allowed to enter XS at Worlds. It’s one thing to try to level the playing field for smaller teams, but it’s another to be dishonest about what type of division this actually was.

To make X-Small a credible Worlds division, it can’t be so exclusive. And if you do want all these restrictions on XS, then the winner should be called something other than a World Champion. Maybe “XS Grand Champion” or something like that would have been a more appropriate name. Cheer Express Miss Silver is great, but their win would have felt even greater and more valid if their main competition, CJA Bombshells, had been allowed to enter their actual division. I don’t think CJA created an XS team to try to beat up on small gyms— that’s just the number of girls they happened to have after spreading their talent amongst two World teams.

So in that sense I’m glad they’re removing the restrictions for XS.

I believe that XS Coed was the second or third largest non-international division at worlds..... In its first year. These are legitimate and difficult divisions that are and would have continued to be incredibly competitive. The reality of cheerleading is that your program name carries weight. It just does. To deny that it does would be ridiculous.

The reality of cheer is that as long as scoresheets are comparative and not set on a rubric that is clear and defined then biases (conscious or otherwise) will always come into play and those biases almost exclusively hurt small gyms.

The death of small gyms in cheerleading isn't just bad for small gyms, it's bad for the entire sport. Mega gym growth and spread is a bubble and as they continue to price out athletes and cause the shut down of small to medium sized gyms around the country eventually the bubble will pop.

 

[Nothanks]

Just posted by Les on IASF Facebook.


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[CPop]

Just posted by Les on IASF Facebook.


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Probably an unpopular opinion, but I don't mind the new non-tumbling divisions. Also disagree with CU's rebuttle; there's different events in gymnastics. People who are great at uneven bars sometimes suck at balance beam.. doesn't make them any less elite. I think it's silly to demonize 2 open categories in it's first year. I suppose people did the same thing with the XS divisions last year... It's a growing sport. It's time to evolve.