All-Star Please Tell Me I Am Wrong

[OnceUponACheerleader]

*sighhhh* we all seem to be forgetting that USASF wants to make money. IASF wants to make money. Vendors & Gyms want to make money. Disney wants to make money. Everyone wants an extra buck in their pockets.

Adding more divisions & changing existing rules (i.e. full length uniform tops) to "worlds" (if we can/should even call it that) does two things:

1. Bring more kids into the sport (i.e. Suzy who has joint injuries and cannot tumble. or Jenny who's parents/religion/personal beliefs have kept her from joining the sport because of modesty reasons)
   
   
2. Makes everybody more money. How much does it cost to "go to worlds"? I'm sure someone has done the math on here before. Factors to consider: Paying for training on a 'worlds team', Paying for everyday practice wear, paying entry fees for [multiple] bid competitions., paying to travel to [multiple] bid competitions, paying hotels & airfare, paying for "xyz competition practice wear", and then actually paying for worlds (park hoppers, hotel, food, tickets, souvenirs, more practice clothes...) like, OMG the list could go on, and on.

If you break it down and 'look where your money is going' NO KIDDING it is of the best interest for the governing bodies to offer these divisions. They cash in on it. Within driving distance from where I live - I know of over 6 NT teams that have sprung up overnight - and they are actively advertising "NEW WORLDS TEAM" - don't fool ourselves. Gyms are cashing in too - whether they agree or not. The demand is there and it is a smart business decision.

I agree with what someone said above regarding "Worlds" being the North American Championships. Even from my first time attending in 2009. It didn't seem to match my definition of a "World Championship" like Gymnastics world championships or other sports "worlds". i.e. the senior divisions were almost exclusively USA teams. HOW can that be 'worlds'. Secondly, the International divisions have much more global representation, but how can the ONLY team from xyz country make finals and place top 10 - when in actuality there were 50 teams better than them that were cut in prelims due to the 3 per country rule? How can you say your top 10 in the world.. but you were actually 67th in prelims? Makes no sense.

Worlds has been a marketing ploy & an effective one since day 1. We have all bought into it.

I love "Worlds" I have had an amazing time every time I go. There is no doubt an incredible talent pool every year & I enjoy watching, competing and the all around atmosphere. But it is a business. Lets take it for what it is.

 

[DonnaM]

Honestly, I see open NT as a smart move because probably 2/3 of the school teams in my area tumble little if at all, and the high school divisions allow non and limited tumbling. I can’t see kids working their skills up to a 5r, and then deciding to go NT just to go to Worlds instead of trying to make a true level 5. But I can see it for the high school grad who’s tumbling is limited to the occasional back handspring on the basketball court at halftime, but still wants to cheer. If you don’t have level 4 tumbling already, you’re probably not going to get it at age 18+. That seems like a great financial move for ISAF (and Varsity, and Disney) for their programs, and for gyms in regions where there might be a demand for such a program.

 

[BBinNCsMom]

The Team you describe should never be considered a world’s team. The fact that they survive the bid process to compete at the event is even more indicative of the real problem than the fact that we’ve now created a special division for them. It will take less than one season of having non tumbling teams at worlds and everyone will discover that it’s just one more path for teams to sand bag and get a free win. Mark my words: there will be at least one team in the top five in non tumbling at worlds that competed all season long as a “real” team, then rechoreographs nontumbling to get the bid and and go for a “win” that they don’t deserve

ETA:

Some of you may have forgotten when IO 5 and IOC5 were being touted as special divisions just to get international teams involved. What happened? Every SAG5 and SC5 that struggled to get a bid put a handful of over 18 athletes on their roster and competed in the less competitive division. We are more than 10 years later. Has a true international team ever won IO5 or IOC5? (I’m really asking this time because I stopped following closely when I realized what a sham all stars was becoming.

I entirely agree that those types of teams should not be at worlds as we know it. We all say the same thing every year about those types of teams. Not every team or kid should be able to go to worlds, but We know that having a “worlds” team is as much about gym marketing as it is anything else. Doesn’t mean it’s a competitive “worlds” team as long as it brings kids and money in the door. Those types of teams put kids in danger and this move, I think, may be partially motivated by that (I hope). Not entirely because I’m sure $$ is a factor, but I think you will see some of these scary “worlds” teams move into this division and ultimately that’s what’s best for the safety of those kids.

That’s not to say that the big gyms won’t enter these divisions. Why shouldn’t they? Their true well rounded worlds kids will continue to stay on the tumbling teams. That’s the good thing about worlds is there are no crossovers.

 

[UCFKnights07]

im still not a fan of non tumbling going to worlds and winning a world champion medal, i have to agree with what some said before that level 5 is just that, for the kids who have the level 5 skills. To create a "modified" level 5 and slap it into worlds weekend, is more a money move then anything else.

But gone are the days where worlds was considered an elite competition, now everyone can go. You cant make an elite competition like worlds and promote it as the best of the best, when your allowing anyone who can pay the entry fee to attend. (beside the bid thing, because apparently worlds bids are easier to get then summit bids)

to the people saying its not fair, well, its not fair that i loved swimming but i wasnt fast enough to make the swimming team, should they have made a special team for slow swimmers, or its not fair that i was good at playing softball in other areas but i could only hit the ball 5 times out of 10, should they have made a special team for kids who cant hit the ball......

 

[XtremeWpg]

I can understand opposition to the NT divisions. BUT! Please don't talk down to the athletes who are placed on these teams. We all know athletes who don't get placed where they want and don't really get a say in what team they're on. Those athletes also didn't choose to create this division or to have it compete at Worlds. Heck, Canada has non tumbling Open divisions for *every level* including level 1.

I don't like level 4.2. I think it's a ridiculous concept, especially to only offer it at senior level. Everyone was outraged when it became a thing too. Here we are, with 4.2 totally normal and no one blinks.

I get that maybe NT shouldn't be at worlds. Maybe it should. There's people with way more power than me who make those decisions. But please don't crud talk the athletes themselves for being on these teams. They didn't decide any of these things.

Regardless of what anyone thinks, the teams that win NT divisions at Worlds will be World Champions with everything that entails. To say they didn't earn it because they didn't tumble isn't fair, especially if they win it in a division that doesn't require it.

 

[Eyes On The Prize]

Non Tumbling is asinine.

“Here’s your world champion medal for being a partially well-rounded athlete.”

As much as I'm not a fan of the NT division, if they are insistant on having NT at Worlds, I think it could work as ONLY L6. I see absolutely no point in having L5 and L6 NT. If you want to focus on one thing (stunts) then do that and do the highest level since its like.... ya know... Worlds lol. It would be really cool to see it progress to be strictly stunts and have MORE innovation in that area - maybe pyramids that regular teams can't do because of time constraints or points or whathave you. I think it could benefit the sport if done correctly. Maybe that would require a re-work of the level progressions or making a solidified points system or universal scoresheet, all things I don't have a lot of faith in our governing body fleshing out correctly... There doesn't need to be L5 NT at Worlds though. That, to me, is an asinine division. As much as I hate comparing cheer to gymnastics, if there are specialty divisions for stunts only, do it at the most elite level and nix L5 NT at the Worlds events.

I think that cheer has gotten too big and this is just another example of that. The division list is exhaustive and doesn't promote competition. It's crazy that some teams don't compete against another team until February or April. To me, this was just another money grab new division to include EVERYONE without actually thinking about where it fits into cheer. The equivalent of "oh, theres too big of a jump between 4 and 5? Let's create 5R. Oh, theres not a place for highschool cheerleaders? Let's create 4.2. Open 6 doesnt serve everyone? Lets create Open 4." I'm not saying cheer shouldn't have a place for everyone, but I think our level progressions/divisions/scoring system needs to be re-evaluated and re-structured to be more inclusive so we can get rid of divisions to create more competition. (Why do we have small, medium, and large divisions when scoresheets use team ratios? Why do we have Senior International Divisions when the international teams are allowed to enter the regular divisions? Why are there USASF and IASF divisions with different grids?) It's all too much. Re-evalute, re-structure, and eliminate divisions/promote competition.

But until we get an adequate, universal governing body that is solely there to govern and not make money, no chance at that amigos! :banghead:

 

[Nikki Moore]

I don't really have an opinion about this but saying that only L5 means you're an elite cheerleader and should be the only actual Worlds champion - was there a time when people weren't doing doubles and they were considered elite? What happens when doubles aren't the highest any longer?

 

[BlueCat]

But until we get an adequate, universal governing body that is solely there to govern and not make money, no chance at that amigos! :banghead:

What sports governing body isn't concerned with generating revenue? Money is a significant driving factor in every sport. Doing things (governing, teaching, enforcement, etc.) takes resources and resources cost money. If you don't bring in at least as much money as you spend, you won't stay solvent very long.

 

[tumbleyoda]

*sighhhh* we all seem to be forgetting that USASF wants to make money. IASF wants to make money. Vendors & Gyms want to make money. Disney wants to make money. Everyone wants an extra buck in their pockets.

Adding more divisions & changing existing rules (i.e. full length uniform tops) to "worlds" (if we can/should even call it that) does two things:

1. Bring more kids into the sport (i.e. Suzy who has joint injuries and cannot tumble. or Jenny who's parents/religion/personal beliefs have kept her from joining the sport because of modesty reasons)
   
   
2. Makes everybody more money. How much does it cost to "go to worlds"? I'm sure someone has done the math on here before. Factors to consider: Paying for training on a 'worlds team', Paying for everyday practice wear, paying entry fees for [multiple] bid competitions., paying to travel to [multiple] bid competitions, paying hotels & airfare, paying for "xyz competition practice wear", and then actually paying for worlds (park hoppers, hotel, food, tickets, souvenirs, more practice clothes...) like, OMG the list could go on, and on.

If you break it down and 'look where your money is going' NO KIDDING it is of the best interest for the governing bodies to offer these divisions. They cash in on it. Within driving distance from where I live - I know of over 6 NT teams that have sprung up overnight - and they are actively advertising "NEW WORLDS TEAM" - don't fool ourselves. Gyms are cashing in too - whether they agree or not. The demand is there and it is a smart business decision.

I agree with what someone said above regarding "Worlds" being the North American Championships. Even from my first time attending in 2009. It didn't seem to match my definition of a "World Championship" like Gymnastics world championships or other sports "worlds". i.e. the senior divisions were almost exclusively USA teams. HOW can that be 'worlds'. Secondly, the International divisions have much more global representation, but how can the ONLY team from xyz country make finals and place top 10 - when in actuality there were 50 teams better than them that were cut in prelims due to the 3 per country rule? How can you say your top 10 in the world.. but you were actually 67th in prelims? Makes no sense.

Worlds has been a marketing ploy & an effective one since day 1. We have all bought into it.

I love "Worlds" I have had an amazing time every time I go. There is no doubt an incredible talent pool every year & I enjoy watching, competing and the all around atmosphere. But it is a business. Lets take it for what it is.

This is so true! The second you stop looking at cheer as a sport and look at it as a business, more of the decisions, rules, and even outcomes make sense. The problem that they have always had is they have to still promote it as a sport in order for it to maintain credibility and promote reach. Now to those who have participated and coached we see it as a sport first and treat it that way. So when the two sides don't evenly line up there is major disagreement. But at the end of the day, those who run it, make the decisions for it, and hold all the power see it as a money making business and that takes priority over everything else. And I do mean everything else.

Worlds has had a major problem for many years. The gyms, coaches and athletes that self eliminate themselves from that event or competing for bids. Those who say thanks but no thanks, not interested. In a business mindset you need those less than wonderful teams to help pay for the event and pad your profit margin. You try to sell them on the dream, the climb, the push, trust the process, whatever you can to make that money. You know at the end of the day it will be the same premier teams and programs in the hunt for finals, maybe with the exception of one or two outliers. Sporting wise, parents, coaches and many athletes know they don't stand much of a chance so why even bother going? Parents don't want to spend all that money to compete one day and not advance. After a year or two going to Disney every year for the same event gets old. Coaches also are competitive. They know if they are not scoring at least a 97.0 in difficulty or higher they have little chance of advancing to Finals, even if they hit. But instead of pushing difficulty, taking risks and taking the loss repeatedly (which is what the governing body wants them to do for the industry business model) they are not attending the event, not attending bid competitions or leveling down. This has created a lack of money to the industry premier event.

I also do not believe most or even many gym asked for these changes. To date I have not heard one coach or gym say I pushed for these. Or if they did they are being super secretive about it, which is possible. What I have heard is many accept it and try to use it to their advantage. This also addresses the we can't field enough level 5 athletes to make a team argument - but remember this is not about sport; it is about business and making money, not for the gym but for them. A NT team doesn't need a spring floor which saves a whole boat load of money on equipment and tumbling instructors. Most of these changes are to level the United States with FIG and with the rest of the cheer world in order to attempt to gain acceptance with the USOC and in the Olympic community. Kind of we will level down until they can level up mindset. But as you rightly said, many gyms will and are taking advantage of it.

 

[Eyes On The Prize]

What sports governing body isn't concerned with generating revenue? Money is a significant driving factor in every sport. Doing things (governing, teaching, enforcement, etc.) takes resources and resources cost money. If you don't bring in at least as much money as you spend, you won't stay solvent very long.

I'm not saying that they shouldn't make any money whatsoever, you need money to do things, but I don't think their main concern is to govern effectively. I'd like to see a bigger commitment to serving the industry because "that's what's best for the people we serve" rather than "that's how we make money". There's obviously a balance between the two but I don't think it's balanced right now and I'd like to see that change.

 

[OnceUponACheerleader]

What I have heard is many accept it and try to use it to their advantage. This also addresses the we can't field enough level 5 athletes to make a team argument - but remember this is not about sport; it is about business and making money, not for the gym but for them. A NT team doesn't need a spring floor which saves a whole boat load of money on equipment and tumbling instructors. Most of these changes are to level the United States with FIG and with the rest of the cheer world in order to attempt to gain acceptance with the USOC and in the Olympic community. Kind of we will level down until they can level up mindset. But as you rightly said, many gyms will and are taking advantage of it.

EXACTLY.

NT Worlds team = still a worlds team.

"No Name All-Stars, WORLDS TEAM(!!)" = Marketability.

 

[OldskoolKYcheercoach]

im still not a fan of non tumbling going to worlds and winning a world champion medal, i have to agree with what some said before that level 5 is just that, for the kids who have the level 5 skills. To create a "modified" level 5 and slap it into worlds weekend, is more a money move then anything else.

But gone are the days where worlds was considered an elite competition, now everyone can go. You cant make an elite competition like worlds and promote it as the best of the best, when your allowing anyone who can pay the entry fee to attend. (beside the bid thing, because apparently worlds bids are easier to get then summit bids)

to the people saying its not fair, well, its not fair that i loved swimming but i wasnt fast enough to make the swimming team, should they have made a special team for slow swimmers, or its not fair that i was good at playing softball in other areas but i could only hit the ball 5 times out of 10, should they have made a special team for kids who cant hit the ball......

This!!!!

Except I would challenge your verbiage just a bit. It's perfectly fair that some people swim faster than you do, and they didn't make a division for slower swimmers. It's perfectly fair that you weren't a superstar softball player and they didn't create a league just for you. Those things aren't equal but they're fair. The amount of money earned for playing basketball by myself and Michael Jordan was not equal, but it was absolutely fair that they paid him more money to be the greatest basketball player of all time, than I made to not advance beyond the middle school level.

It's the difference between fair and equal.

 

[OldskoolKYcheercoach]

I have to agree...my Cp does not have her double, and is on a 5R. She is a natural athlete, but getting non-restricted 5 tumbling separates the wheat from the chaff so to speak. She is going to actually have to put the work and time to get those skills if she wants to go to Worlds. She was briefly excited about the NT division, but my husband and I told her we weren’t footing the bill for a year on a NT team just to go to Worlds. She has no physical issues that would prevent her from getting a double. We refuse to reward a lack of work ethic on her part. I told her we love her and support her even if she never gets her double and stays R5, but not letting her take the easy way out to get to Worlds.

If your husband ever leaves you, I'm your man. I love this approach. I wish more parents who felt this way would speak up. As it stands, though, these are typically the parents who understand that their role in athletics is to support their child and not live their life vicariously through them. You probably tend to approach coaches in the right way. When things don't go the way your child wants them to go, I bet you teach them that life is tough sometimes and learning to deal with adversity now is going to prepare them for dealing with even bigger adversity in their life and career.

I've just created a profile for you based on a 50-word snippet of information....sorry

 

[dat.jpp]

Worlds is becoming more of a right, more then it is a privilege...

 

[OldskoolKYcheercoach]

*sighhhh* we all seem to be forgetting that USASF wants to make money. IASF wants to make money. Vendors & Gyms want to make money. Disney wants to make money. Everyone wants an extra buck in their pockets.

Adding more divisions & changing existing rules (i.e. full length uniform tops) to "worlds" (if we can/should even call it that) does two things:

1. Bring more kids into the sport (i.e. Suzy who has joint injuries and cannot tumble. or Jenny who's parents/religion/personal beliefs have kept her from joining the sport because of modesty reasons)
   
   
2. Makes everybody more money. How much does it cost to "go to worlds"? I'm sure someone has done the math on here before. Factors to consider: Paying for training on a 'worlds team', Paying for everyday practice wear, paying entry fees for [multiple] bid competitions., paying to travel to [multiple] bid competitions, paying hotels & airfare, paying for "xyz competition practice wear", and then actually paying for worlds (park hoppers, hotel, food, tickets, souvenirs, more practice clothes...) like, OMG the list could go on, and on.

If you break it down and 'look where your money is going' NO KIDDING it is of the best interest for the governing bodies to offer these divisions. They cash in on it. Within driving distance from where I live - I know of over 6 NT teams that have sprung up overnight - and they are actively advertising "NEW WORLDS TEAM" - don't fool ourselves. Gyms are cashing in too - whether they agree or not. The demand is there and it is a smart business decision.

I agree with what someone said above regarding "Worlds" being the North American Championships. Even from my first time attending in 2009. It didn't seem to match my definition of a "World Championship" like Gymnastics world championships or other sports "worlds". i.e. the senior divisions were almost exclusively USA teams. HOW can that be 'worlds'. Secondly, the International divisions have much more global representation, but how can the ONLY team from xyz country make finals and place top 10 - when in actuality there were 50 teams better than them that were cut in prelims due to the 3 per country rule? How can you say your top 10 in the world.. but you were actually 67th in prelims? Makes no sense.

Worlds has been a marketing ploy & an effective one since day 1. We have all bought into it.

I love "Worlds" I have had an amazing time every time I go. There is no doubt an incredible talent pool every year & I enjoy watching, competing and the all around atmosphere. But it is a business. Lets take it for what it is.

In some ways though....parents and gyms contribute to the excessive cost/money made by "keeping up with the joneses"

Name a sport where it's considered to be a NECESSITY to have a $500 uniform that gets worn 6 times a year

Name a sport where it's considered to be a NECESSITY to have practice clothes that cost in the neighborhood of $100-$200 and new ones are purchased every year

Name a sport where it's considered to be CUSTOMARY to attend 4, 5, 6 events a year chasing an invitation to an alleged "World Championship?"

Name a sport where it's considered to be CUSTOMARY to charge an "entry fee" by the participant, as opposed to the team. In most youth sports, the entry fee for a team to compete in a tournament is less than the entry fee for one participant in a cheer competition.

Name a sport where marketing for the event is almost as often focused on the "participant awards," "production," "experience," and "championship jackets/rings," as it is on the level of competition, and showing up to compete for the bragging rights of winning.

Cheer is the only one I can think of that fits all of the above (which is another reason I maintain it is not a sport), and none of them are good things.