All-Star Please Tell Me I Am Wrong

[OldskoolKYcheercoach]

Why does everyone need to go to worlds?

Hey, remember pre-worlds when everyone complained how every gym had national Champion banners and how there was no big stage, no way to truly know the best of the best? Yeah, we’re headed right back there. Worlds was supposed to be the best of the best.

Non-tumbling is not the best of the best, no matter your reason (injury, age, or mental blocks).

#micdrop

 

[dat.jpp]

Can't your coaches just tell the EP's/judges to not judge that one individual who is injured?

 

[OldskoolKYcheercoach]

What sports governing body isn't concerned with generating revenue? Money is a significant driving factor in every sport. Doing things (governing, teaching, enforcement, etc.) takes resources and resources cost money. If you don't bring in at least as much money as you spend, you won't stay solvent very long.

I agree, but let's be honest. There are a high percentage of those governing bodies out there that seem to take their non-profit status a little more seriously than the USASF.

 

[OnceUponACheerleader]

In some ways though....parents and gyms contribute to the excessive cost/money made by "keeping up with the joneses"

Name a sport where it's considered to be a NECESSITY to have a $500 uniform that gets worn 6 times a year

Name a sport where it's considered to be a NECESSITY to have practice clothes that cost in the neighborhood of $100-$200 and new ones are purchased every year

Name a sport where it's considered to be CUSTOMARY to attend 4, 5, 6 events a year chasing an invitation to an alleged "World Championship?"

Name a sport where it's considered to be CUSTOMARY to charge an "entry fee" by the participant, as opposed to the team. In most youth sports, the entry fee for a team to compete in a tournament is less than the entry fee for one participant in a cheer competition.

Name a sport where marketing for the event is almost as often focused on the "participant awards," "production," "experience," and "championship jackets/rings," as it is on the level of competition, and showing up to compete for the bragging rights of winning.

Cheer is the only one I can think of that fits all of the above (which is another reason I maintain it is not a sport), and none of them are good things.

Oh - I absolutely don't disagree. And if we are being honest, kudos to USASF, Varsity, and all the others involved. Great business model. Target the families that can pay, make it competitive, make it flashy (throwing around words such as "National Champion, World Champion, Etc.) gift the athletes rings and jackets, and make them desirable.. Boom, perfect storm. You have these kids that "want it all" and you have the parents that are prepared to do anything for their kids to do so.

Like I said, we have all bought into it (or our hard working parents have), Contributed to it & promoted it ("cheerlebrities", etc).
But, like someone already said above, these governing bodies continue to sell the experience as a "push", "Dream", "climb", "Trust the Process", (eta: @tumbleyoda) whatever.... and we buy it. We feed it....

and then we complain when they add divisions... or change rules.. to ultimately benefit their bottom line.

I've loved cheerleading since my first competition, still do, years into my retirement. But I recognize the business that it is and move forward. I don't know - maybe that it's just me and because I am now an outsider looking in.

 

[OldskoolKYcheercoach]

Oh - I absolutely don't disagree. And if we are being honest, kudos to USASF, Varsity, and all the others involved. Great business model. Target the families that can pay, make it competitive, make it flashy (throwing around words such as "National Champion, World Champion, Etc.) gift the athletes rings and jackets, and make them desirable.. Boom, perfect storm. You have these kids that "want it all" and you have the parents that are prepared to do anything for their kids to do so.

Like I said, we have all bought into it (or our hard working parents have), Contributed to it & promoted it ("cheerlebrities", etc).
But, like someone already said above, these governing bodies continue to sell the experience as a "push", "Dream", "climb", "Trust the Process", whatever.... and we buy it. We feed it....

and then we complain when they add divisions... or change rules.. to ultimately benefit their bottom line.

I've loved cheerleading since my first competition, still do, years into my retirement. But I recognize the business that it is and move forward. I don't know - maybe that it's just me and because I am now an outsider looking in.

I wouldn't take such a stake in it, if it wasn't such a farce.

Every sports season there's a story of some down-on-her-luck single mother working at McDonald's who's kid plays basketball, baseball, or football and those athletic endeavors got the kid out of the "ghetto" and into college.

That's simply not possible in cheerleading because we've created an environment where a family pays $40-50 thousand dollars over the course of their child's life in cheer; but at the end of the road, unless they head to one of about 5 universities, they might get $500 a year in scholarship money.

 

[XtremeWpg]

Worlds is becoming more of a right, more then it is a privilege...

This 100% depends where you are located. Where I live, we have to travel minimum of 6 hours to get even a partial paid/at large bid. And even then, there is only 3 total bids. We have to go 18 hours by car for the closest paid bid (there's still only 1 in the whole country I believe) or any other bids. And I don't live in a country where cheerleading is overly new, we have many World Champion teams, just none anywhere close to where I live.

I think people have to stop looking at Worlds as American centered and how it impacts American teams only. Look at ANY Olympic sport. The variance in elite skill level is dramatic. But those athletes are still the best in their home country and deserve the chance to compete at the event because they earned it by being the best of where they live. No one is saying to dumb down the American teams difficulty to make room for international teams, but people crapping on international teams and saying they should just be better, train harder, whatever isn't right either (not that you did this, your post is just a jumping off point).

Programs are going to enter whatever divisions are the best fit for their athlete base and the demands of their customers. USASF/IASF is going to do the exact same. Whether someone likes NT or international divisions or not isn't going to be relevant unless a large enough portion of the membership of the USASF is angry and gets things changed back. We've seen that happen before with rule changes etc. Clearly there wasn't enough general outrage for this division to be eliminated.

 

[catlady]

@OldskoolKYcheercoach

Over the past few years there has been more information coming out on concussions, growth plates, ligament tears, recurring sprain damage and the increasing occurrence of osteoarthritis in people in their 30's that is being traced back to youth sports. Look at how many concussions, ACL, MCL, meniscus tears, sprained and broken ankles we have witnessed just at World's alone. I'm not sure we will see NT as the future of cheer, but I wholeheartedly believe they are looking to get participation and interest earlier than later. Football was behind the learning curve with concussions and they're struggling to change equipment and rules to make it safer and rebuild parent trust. After the concussion information came out, I commend a governing body that is not so naive to think they are exempt or resistant to new medical findings. I love the first line of the article below, "Even when the best and most logical information is presented to them, human beings can be very slow to make wholesale changes to ingrained traditions."

ADM influencing change in youth football

 

[OldskoolKYcheercoach]

I think people have to stop looking at Worlds as American centered and how it impacts American teams only. Look at ANY Olympic sport. The variance in elite skill level is dramatic. But those athletes are still the best in their home country and deserve the chance to compete at the event because they earned it by being the best of where they live.
.

You're correct, the best in their country deserve to get to go to the Olympics. Complicating factor: once those folks get to the Olympics they are competing against the best in the other countries. What's being suggested here is that there should be a special division for "best in their country, but doesn't stand a chance."

 

[HeatUniqueJ]

This 100% depends where you are located. Where I live, we have to travel minimum of 6 hours to get even a partial paid/at large bid. And even then, there is only 3 total bids. We have to go 18 hours by car for the closest paid bid (there's still only 1 in the whole country I believe) or any other bids. And I don't live in a country where cheerleading is overly new, we have many World Champion teams, just none anywhere close to where I live.

I think people have to stop looking at Worlds as American centered and how it impacts American teams only. Look at ANY Olympic sport. The variance in elite skill level is dramatic. But those athletes are still the best in their home country and deserve the chance to compete at the event because they earned it by being the best of where they live. No one is saying to dumb down the American teams difficulty to make room for international teams, but people crapping on international teams and saying they should just be better, train harder, whatever isn't right either (not that you did this, your post is just a jumping off point).

Programs are going to enter whatever divisions are the best fit for their athlete base and the demands of their customers. USASF/IASF is going to do the exact same. Whether someone likes NT or international divisions or not isn't going to be relevant unless a large enough portion of the membership of the USASF is angry and gets things changed back. We've seen that happen before with rule changes etc. Clearly there wasn't enough general outrage for this division to be eliminated.

100% agree

We have 1 Bid Competition in our country which gives out a handful of Bids to Teams, its the biggest Comp in Europe and it's not easy to win and get a Bid. And it's defnitly an honor to compete a Worlds for every single one of them. It's easy to say International Teams need to work on their Tumbling, guess what we are all doing? Definitly not sitting back in our chairs eating a bag of Chips drinking some Soda. Go ahead walk in most of the worlds shoes with not having real Gyms, practising on Hard Floor , having to beg Citys for School Gyms to practice in, sometimes throughout the summer having to work outside for weeks because there is simply no building available.

Does it need a Non Tumbling Division at Worlds? Maybe not. Do the international Teams deserve that constant criticism for not being up to American Standarts? I don't think so
IO6 had 3 International Teams in the Top 3 this year... there's that

 

[BBinNCsMom]

You're correct, the best in their country deserve to get to go to the Olympics. Complicating factor: once those folks get to the Olympics they are competing against the best in the other countries. What's being suggested here is that there should be a special division for "best in their country, but doesn't stand a chance."

You have taken the safety aspect completely out of the picture. There are waaaaay too many teams at worlds right now throwing skills that should NEVER see a competition floor. How many of those kids get hurt or got hurt trying to get their marginal skill? All in the name of XYZ all stars being able to go to worlds. Now they have a division where Suzy doesn’t have to throw her scary double death spin and the team can still go to worlds (makes the gym, athletes, and EPs happy). Maybe it’s the mom in me, but I love this purely for the safety factor. I think we will see far less teams in the tumbling division with the scary tumbling we complain about every year.

 

[tumbleyoda]

Oh - I absolutely don't disagree. And if we are being honest, kudos to USASF, Varsity, and all the others involved. Great business model. Target the families that can pay, make it competitive, make it flashy (throwing around words such as "National Champion, World Champion, Etc.) gift the athletes rings and jackets, and make them desirable.. Boom, perfect storm. You have these kids that "want it all" and you have the parents that are prepared to do anything for their kids to do so.

Like I said, we have all bought into it (or our hard working parents have), Contributed to it & promoted it ("cheerlebrities", etc).
But, like someone already said above, these governing bodies continue to sell the experience as a "push", "Dream", "climb", "Trust the Process", whatever.... and we buy it. We feed it....

and then we complain when they add divisions... or change rules.. to ultimately benefit their bottom line.

I've loved cheerleading since my first competition, still do, years into my retirement. But I recognize the business that it is and move forward. I don't know - maybe that it's just me and because I am now an outsider looking in.

The saddest thing IMO is when a gym owner says enough and seeks other opportunities for their clients (remember they are the gyms clients before they are the industries customers)that coach or gym is categorically blacklisted, told they are attending unsafe unsanctioned competitions, and in some cases an industry sponsored gym is conveniently placed in proximity to it, to draw those customers away. The things that are said and done behind the scenes in the name of "industry good" is sickening. The amount of gym owners that have concluded after being talked down to by those in key position in the industry that their best option is to close rather than find a way to be profitable and affordable to their clients grows each season. Others don't agree with the direction we are heading but admit they have lost control of the message to their clients as the industry has found numerous ways to market to them WITHOUT going thru thru coach or gym first.

Now the push to create new satellites of gyms around the country takes on a different look when you look at it from a business mindset with the view of benefiting the industry. With the notable exception of CA (who Jody has candidly explained his philosophy in new satellites in the past and I agree with it) if your gym doesn't support the industry mission, we will make sure there is one in your area to go to. They will be promoted, marketed and pushed above all others. We will support and if necessary help fund that gym because they will attend our events only. It is a smart business move for them.

And if you think these conversations are not happening weekly, you are sadly mistaken.

 

[OldskoolKYcheercoach]

@OldskoolKYcheercoach

Over the past few years there has been more information coming out on concussions, growth plates, ligament tears, recurring sprain damage and the increasing occurrence of osteoarthritis in people in their 30's that is being traced back to youth sports. Look at how many concussions, ACL, MCL, meniscus tears, sprained and broken ankles we have witnessed just at World's alone. I'm not sure we will see NT as the future of cheer, but I wholeheartedly believe they are looking to get participation and interest earlier than later. Football was behind the learning curve with concussions and they're struggling to change equipment and rules to make it safer and rebuild parent trust. After the concussion information came out, I commend a governing body that is not so naive to think they are exempt or resistant to new medical findings. I love the first line of the article below, "Even when the best and most logical information is presented to them, human beings can be very slow to make wholesale changes to ingrained traditions."

ADM influencing change in youth football

If that's the reasoning, there would just be an outright ban on tumbling.

Don't kid yourself into thinking that this is some sort of safety-driven push.

If they wanted to limit the number of concussions, they'd start by banning double downs. Just like they did in school cheer. School cheer gets rid of double downs and the number of concussions instantly fell dramatically.

If they wanted to get rid of ACL,MCL, etc, they'd get rid of tumbling doubles. I'd be willing to bet those numbers went down when tumbling doubles were done away with at the high school and college level.

The difficulty levels would be more streamlined (this I actually believe is in the works, as I have seen some of the changes in the past few years as moving things a little closer together).

They would get rid of what I call the "all star cheater" techniques on a lot of stunt skills. This new trend of having kids land in cradles with their arms pinned to their sides would be banned. Any version of a full up that is done with the bases merry-go-round walking under a stunt would be banned. These things all increase the risk by allowing kids to do pseudo-skills as a top or a base and feel like their training is adequate when it's really fallen way short.

 

[Cheerfun2]

If your husband ever leaves you, I'm your man. I love this approach. I wish more parents who felt this way would speak up. As it stands, though, these are typically the parents who understand that their role in athletics is to support their child and not live their life vicariously through them. You probably tend to approach coaches in the right way. When things don't go the way your child wants them to go, I bet you teach them that life is tough sometimes and learning to deal with adversity now is going to prepare them for dealing with even bigger adversity in their life and career.

I've just created a profile for you based on a 50-word snippet of information....sorry

Ha ha! Well, I try, lol. I definitely defer to coaches, that’s for sure...it’s their job to know this sport; my knowledge is limited. I always said I would step in if a coach were verbally or physically abusive, thank God that has never happened. I think I am just one of those parents who doesn’t automatically think their child is always right. When mine complains she was moved to a more undesirable stunt group or some such bc “coach is UNFAIR!” I always say the same thing, “You KNOW this stuff changes all the time, deal with it, and it’ll change again next week. Have a good attitude.” I hate angst and drama so I kind of mute it. I am probably not as “best friendy” as some moms are with their teen girls, but she knows I love her. I hope she is learning how to handle adversity, gosh, that is such an important life skill!!

 

[OldskoolKYcheercoach]

You have taken the safety aspect completely out of the picture. There are waaaaay too many teams at worlds right now throwing skills that should NEVER see a competition floor. How many of those kids get hurt or got hurt trying to get their marginal skill? All in the name of XYZ all stars being able to go to worlds. Now they have a division where Suzy doesn’t have to throw her scary double death spin and the team can still go to worlds (makes the gym, athletes, and EPs happy). Maybe it’s the mom in me, but I love this purely for the safety factor. I think we will see far less teams in the tumbling division with the scary tumbling we complain about every year.

Again, those teams shouldn't be at Worlds. Among other reasons, the coach that allows that to happen, sucks; and shouldn't be allowed to coach, much less be considered a "worlds" coach. A scoring system and bid system that TRULY rewarded teams for clean, perfectly executed skills would come closer to weeding that out than a NT division. Now you're going to see teams who have no business stunting at level 5 sneaking into the nontumbling division. The nontumbling divisions at high school nationals typically have about 3 teams that can stunt roof off the place, and then a majority of teams who wouldn't have been competitive otherwise. If you want to see dangerous, get a good look at some of the jacked up stunting skills people will be trying to perform now that they have time to focus just on that.

 

[XtremeWpg]

You're correct, the best in their country deserve to get to go to the Olympics. Complicating factor: once those folks get to the Olympics they are competing against the best in the other countries. What's being suggested here is that there should be a special division for "best in their country, but doesn't stand a chance."

I can't fault a program for taking advantage of something offered to them. If there's anyone to be annoyed at, it's the USASF/IASF in this regard, not the gyms coaches and athletes. Why wouldn't someone put a team in a division that is legally offered at an event?

All I'm really getting at is that the criticism of the participants in a division isn't warranted. Anyone saying that those athletes won't be a "real world champion" is uncalled for. Fortunately, unfortunately or indifferent, NT is a worlds division. And whoever wins is will still be a world champion, no matter what anyone's opinion of the division is.