Discussion in 'Discussing the Cheerleading Industry' started by drewpate, Jan 28, 2010.
It is not about getting rid of cheating, it is about reducing it to a miniscule level. Nothing can ever be permanently eliminated.
I may be wrong, but I don't think there is a lot of it going on. We're trying to get from a low percentage to zero, which will be challenging.
Who are we sending the birth certificates to? The USASF doesn't have the staff to process all of them. Are we willing to pay enough to hire more USASF employees or use a 3rd party for processing? To be reasonably useful wouldn't we need the athlete to come to the USASF or 3rd party with info to verify their age and let the USASF or 3rd party take a picture of them, similar to the DMV?
Even if a birth certificate and photo are sent in, who does it? Having the gym or athlete do it doesn't prevent false information from being sent in, so we've created more work, at a higher cost, for little or no benefit. If we have the USASF or a 3rd party verify everything we have a higher cost of getting the system going.
Maybe we need to revisit the goals of the system. Initially it seemed to be to prevent cheating. Is this the goal? Is it the only goal or are there others? Unless we know specifically what problem we are trying to solve we aren't going to make much progress.
Well, if there isnt any or much cheating going on in the first place then no need for a system.
In the soccer world, there is little to no talk of cheating because a birth certificate, application, and photo are sent into the NCYSA to be processed for a card. Being "carded" is the only way you play. If someone is caught cheating (providing false paperwork) then the clubs loses their right to compete along with fines, penalties, etc,
I "hear" a lot of talk about cheating in the Allstar world. Maybe it's all fabricated because there are no true systems in place to prove otherwise?!?
I am all for it because it prevents 'rumors'. If there is a $20 dollar registration fee per kid for the USASF to register and look at each birth certificate and enter them into a computer... well... I will do that for $20 a certificate .
I do not think saying it is too costly or too much manpower is a solution, it is avoiding what needs to be done.
I agree Kingston. It's a cop out. If other sports do it, there's no reason we can't. Period. End of story...
Assuming we can put some type of system in place with the money and manpower...then what controls does the USASF have IF a gym is found cheating? I have always been confused about the USASF's governing power.
I ask this because the NCYSA can virtually stop your team from playing soccer or at least limit it to playing games that don't really matter. Does the USASF have this type or power?
I think any event would disqualify you for cheating and probably limit your participation in Worlds. Our cheer world is also rather small... it may not kill your business if you were found cheating, but it certainly wouldnt help it.
I think that, #1 it would cause that team to lose their placement at that particular competition, #2 the event producers should have to disqualify that team from returning to their comp for X amount of months, etc. I don't think just disqualifying them from worlds should be the only course of action because not all gyms even have teams trying to make it to worlds.
I was thinking the same thing. Not all gyms attempt or even care about Worlds.
I am all for a system but am just unsure of what the penalties are if cheating is discovered. Can the USASF force event producers to handle this in a certain way or do we just assume they would?
Just caught up on this whole conversation. I was involved in the last thread and missed out on this one..
I think several people have different ideas about the whole system... I don't think the sole purpose is to limit cheating... i think it also makes everything easier. Registration for competitions, and forms etc. As a coach i could already have my team roster on this website by ID # and can make changes only when necessary. also it is to better document what exactly is going on. it will be easier to see what teams are doing with their athletes, age wise and level wise. we can see if having no bottom age limit for senior 1-4 teams really matters... are there lots of younger kids or are gyms sticking with a certain age. thats just one of many applications of this system. also trends in where kids are going... X gym has 300 athletes this year, the following year they only have 150... what happened... or Y gym has 400 athletes registered on teams for this competition yet they only have 300 athletes listed on the database in the gym. are they really crossing over that much? etc.
also, for verification. I would say that the gym could send all of their athletes invitations to the system. You get to set up your account on there and enter information (most peoples parents would do this). Once your information is entered, you can NOT change it. Maybe you can change your address and once a year you can alter the childs height and weight. if you need to change anything mid year, you have to submit a request.
then comeptitions can randomly select certain people to verify. (kind of like airport security checks). Randomly pick out one person per team and make sure all of the information matches who the child actually is. if gyms know that we are serious about this, then they won't be cheating. it has already been said if you are caught cheating at worlds, you are not eligible the following year. this will def not be good for a gyms future.
and cost definitely shouldn't be a concern, the usasf will be able to find a very cost effective way to do this. the most costly part of this entire process will be development. there will most likely need to be a developer for the entire system and also the user interface so that 100s of people across the country at comeptitions can use this system with little training.. then there needs to be someone that works on the implementation and making sure everyone uses it.
For example, lets say there were 20,000 athletes at cheersport, so for arguements sake, lets just assume there are 40,000 athletes in the country, which there are wayyyy more. If every athlete has to pay $25 for registration, which is not outrageous at all. That is $1million. If we couldn't get this system going for $1mil then it should not be implemented. But i can assure you it will NOT cost that much. Then also maybe there is a $5 maintenance fee every year for each athlete and that is $200,000. So you figure $100,000 for a developer the first year, maybe more, depends on what platform everything is done on. The person who is in charge of this project should definitely not make a 6 figure salary, and if they will, i am nominating myself and will move anywhere they want me to! So that leaves $800,000+ for all of the hardware, and that is definitely doable. The system maintenance each year and someone's salary to be in charge would prob come close to $200,000 for the following years.
I know I don't have the solution, but I haven't heard a reasonable one yet from anyone else. Cost has to be a consideration because if we raise the cost of entry to All Stars we are likely to prevent more kids from getting started in it, slowly killing the industry.
You threw out $20 as a cost, based on what? Is the USASF going to be able to come to my gym to look at birth certificates, etc., or do I have to send my parents to Memphis/Atlanta/Dallas? If my families need to go someplace the cost to them isn't $20 when you factor in travel and time.
Now picture having a conversation with a new to All Stars parent that walks into your gym. You have to tell them before they will get a chance to see their kid compete they have to pay the gym a registration fee, pay the gym a tuition fee or two, order a uniform and various other clothing items, pay a competition entry fee, and travel someplace to register with the USASF. Do you think this will prevent people from joining All Stars?
The USASF's power is limited because it's optional to be part of it. It's required if I want my gym to go to Worlds or as an event producer I want to give bids to Worlds, but there are several gyms and event producers that are not part of it.
I dont think anyone wants to go to the usasf to register
i think he meant send them a copy of the birth certificate.
i feel like when you register for any other sport you have to bring your birth certificate and they check it. and with cheer its just like hey if we ask for it, you should have one
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