All-Star Starting A Discussion: The Safety Of Spring Floor Vs... Well.. Anything Else

[AScheer]

As a coach of a school team & a former allstar & school cheerleader I love this thread! I've experienced all surfaces (even a wood floor on top of steal beams for a college bball court that was put down in squares - most painful ever!) I think it's ridiculous that schools can't use spring floors. Up until this year my team has competed on spring floor competitions only! I did this because I do think hard floors are harder on the body and personally I always hated hard floor. Our state has a rule however that schools cannot practice or compete on a spring floor, so this year we are all hard floor, all the time. In general we have very few injuries (knock on wood!) however I have noticed the girls complaining more. While they aren't injured from being on the floor they are definitely hurting more & feeling the aches from constant repetition on the hard floor (mostly backs.) We still have 6 months left in our season so there are occasionally days I don't have them tumble because I can see the floor taking its toll on them!

From my experience falling from a stunt is pretty much the same on either floor though. Spring may soften it a little, but there are so many other things that effect it. Two years ago we had one girl fall from an extension on hard floor, no injuries. Same girl fell a few months later on a spring, broke her arm. In no means do I think spring is worse, I just think falling from a stunt has so many other factors that effect if there is an injury or not.

 

[PullandPray23]

I dont think either are truly "safe" to stunt on per say. I think that a spring floor compared to a hard floor gives you a tad bit more "insurance"

 

[glitterdiva]

I think that yes a spring floor offers a softer fall but, a fall is a fall. Whether it be on grass, track, basketball court, or a spring fall something bad could happen. We all know there is the inherit risk in cheer I think you need to decide is it worth it?

 

[SharkDad]

These falls that are being described are great as examples from experience, but we have to keep something in mind.

The injury studies are focusing on catastrophic injuries for a reason. Severe concussions, brain injuries, skull fractures, back and neck fractures have a particularly different outcome on an athlete's life over landing bad and breaking a wrist or ankle.

Think of it like dropping an egg. On a spring floor from a certain height (maybe 1-2 ft) it can be dropped and may shake everything inside some, but the shell will probably keep the shell intact. From a hard surface, the shell will break and everything will spill out because nothing is absorbing the impact at all. This is not a perfectr analogy, but it illustrates why the different surfaces can have a much different affect on the outcome of a fall.

Like many people point out, repetition has a significant lopng term outcome as well and I don't beleive that is considered in this study at all, although there may be a gymnastics study out there that aludes to this. I'll see if I can find one.

 

[Aussiekat]

A bad catch happens more often than a potentially catastrophic fall, and for that my body is thankful for spring. If I slip on a pop down or my legs aren't caught on a cradle then the impact on a spring floor is going to be far less damaging than on any other stunting surface. Most of the bumps and knocks I've got from stunting come from human to human collisions, not human to mat, or at least human to mat is secondary if bases fall from the impact of saving flyers from hitting the mat. Maybe they should institute a padding requirement on elbows, knees, collarbones, shoulders... those sumo suits would solve the issue of not being able to wear an adequate sports bra with your halter crop uni.

 

[King]

A bad catch happens more often than a potentially catastrophic fall, and for that my body is thankful for spring. If I slip on a pop down or my legs aren't caught on a cradle then the impact on a spring floor is going to be far less damaging than on any other stunting surface. Most of the bumps and knocks I've got from stunting come from human to human collisions, not human to mat, or at least human to mat is secondary if bases fall from the impact of saving flyers from hitting the mat. Maybe they should institute a padding requirement on elbows, knees, collarbones, shoulders... those sumo suits would solve the issue of not being able to wear an adequate sports bra with your halter crop uni.

Padding would hinder the ability to move and possibly increase the risk of injury.

As to falls and them being the same on either surface some of that perception comes from how the fall happened. If a stunt begins to fall it is rare (though it does happen) that the athlete has a straight drop to the floor without some resistance from the bases around here. As well (and I learned this from my one judo class in college) the more you spread out your body so there is a larger impact point the more you are spreading out the force at which you are coming down.

To all those saying they have fallen and it feels the same I ask this: how does a floor make it easier to tumble by absorbing and returning one's 'bounce' have the same impact when someone is falling? When you walk onto a spring floor if you jump up and 'punch' the floor just as you are standing you will feel it give and absorb then bounce you back. Do it on a hard floor and you won't feel quite as nice a feeling.

 

[Level5Mom]

A bad catch happens more often than a potentially catastrophic fall, and for that my body is thankful for spring. If I slip on a pop down or my legs aren't caught on a cradle then the impact on a spring floor is going to be far less damaging than on any other stunting surface. Most of the bumps and knocks I've got from stunting come from human to human collisions, not human to mat, or at least human to mat is secondary if bases fall from the impact of saving flyers from hitting the mat. Maybe they should institute a padding requirement on elbows, knees, collarbones, shoulders... those sumo suits would solve the issue of not being able to wear an adequate sports bra with your halter crop uni.

This is an interesting point, and I've often wondered why we don't go through the learning phases of stunting with some sort of protective equipment. A thin soft helmet during pyramid learning sounds stupid, but could prevent a lot of injuries to flyers and bases. Perhaps elbow padding could do some good. I know on my daughters team several girls have mouth guards that they put in while a flyer is being something new. Once she gets it they stop wearing them. I would like to see this explored further.

 

[BlueCat]

What, exactly, is an "acceptable" level of risk?

You really have to define/determine that before you can, from a science-y point of view, say what is "safe" and what is "unsafe".

 

[MissBee]

• concrete – 0.5 ft
• vinyl installed over concrete – 0.5 ft
• carpet – 1 ft
• asphalt – 1 ft
• rubberized track – 1.5 ft
• dry dirt – 2 ft
• dry grass, 2 inches tall – 3.5 ft
• artificial turf – 4 ft
• traditional foam floor – 4 ft
• wood gym floor – 4.5 ft
• dry grass, 4 inches tall – 4.5 ft
• landing mat on vinyl tile – 6.5 ft
• landing mat on foam floor – exceeds 10.5 ft
• spring floor – exceeds 11 ft

Heck I didn't even know this was out there. So lets direct what this means. And.. I pose the question to y'all. what does this mean?

Where did you get this, I'm interested in seeing the whole thing.

 

[imrichhowboutu]

Where did you get this, I'm interested in seeing the whole thing.

Its on this site. It's been around for a while. I remember reading it over the summer
http://terry-zeigler.suite101.com/surfaces-matter-for-keeping-cheerleaders-safe-a181445

 

[MissBee]

I love the idea of wearing mouth guards....they greatly reduce the risk of concussions!

There are many reasons why spring floors aren't used in High School:

1. Cost, most schools don't even have a full foam only floor.
2. Time/space....schools do not have a dedicated cheerleading practice space, it takes 1-2 hours to set up a spring floor...that would mean 1-2 hours for set up, 2-3 hours for practice, 1-2 hours for break down.....no school is going to set aside that much gym time for one team to practice.
3. spring floors with steel coil springs scratch the floor they are laid out on. No biggie in your gym where it's set up all the time, or in a convention center on a concrete floor. You set that up on your hardwood basketball court....you have one unhappy AD and Custodial Staff!

 

[MissBee]

Its on this site. It's been around for a while. I remember reading it over the summer
http://terry-zeigler.suite101.com/surfaces-matter-for-keeping-cheerleaders-safe-a181445

Thank you!

 

[Justacoach]

So, going back to your earlier post, if it is about minimizing risk why is stunting on hard floor minimizing risk in an acceptable way?

Not just stunting on hard floor. Stunting on hard floor performing stunts that the athletes can safely do.

 

[Justacoach]

I do completely agree that spring floor is safer. I also think that school competitive teams should practice in an allstar gym with qualified coaches. The rules have recently begun to limit what teams can perform on the track and bball court (no double downs and no baskets.) I think this is a good thing.

I liked when high school teams competed on spring floors. But the problem was that many schools did not have a spring floor to practice on and only performed on one at competition. I know a girl who threw an arabian through to full that was so used to doing it on non-spring - she over-rotated to her face on the arabian at competition. This was an elite level 10 ex-gymnast.

There is no way schools will absorb the costs and logistics of a spring floor.

I would like a way for school competition squads to practice and compete on spring floor while preserving conservative stunting at practice and games at school. Maybe even more restrictive stunting rules for court, track and grass? And comp squads have to secure a gym location to practice at? Either allstar or gymnastics facility?

 

[King]

Not just stunting on hard floor. Stunting on hard floor performing stunts that the athletes can safely do.

But if the stunt is performed correctly it does not matter the surface that it is performed on. And that is the question in all this.

Tumbling on a spring floor, actually executing the skill, is affected whether the skill goes well or doesn't go well. A spring floor is always preferred and safer. Stunting on a spring floor is not affected until the skill goes incorrectly. So the spring floor is more like a bike helmet, important if (and only if) something goes wrong. Experience makes a difference and the skill level of the athlete makes a difference. I am going to use this example purely cause it proves my point. I think that center stunt group for CEA (the Maddie one) is a very talented group. I could ask them to do a straight up stretch straight cradle possibly on hot coals and they would hit it without a problem (I would say they could hit 10,000 of those in a row). But as the difficulty of the stunt goes up (their little ball tick tock thingy) the chance of dropping goes up. If the spotter had not been there she might have hit the floor. What if they were on hard floor? What if they were on cement?

At a certain point every stunt group will drop. Then it is a matter of the surface you are on and what is the acceptable level of risk for a catastrophic injury from what height.

On Mythbusters they have they have these impact tags (I forget their actual name) that measure force. Depending on how much force is exerted the tag goes off (a little bubble breaks or something happens). It would be fun to get a dummy and some of those tags and drop onto cement, hard floor, basketball court, and spring floor form different heights. See what the difference is.