All-Star Top 3 Means, Top 3 For Everyone

[BlueCat]

While I wouldn't consider it "harvesting" them to turn a profit, you are essentially correct in the way that you sum it up. For better or worse, gyms must eventually at least break even to stay in business and provide the services that they do. Whether they are eeking out a living from teaching 4 year olds or 24 year olds, it all essentially functions the same way. The kids or their parents pay tuition in return for the serves they get. The gym doesn't get any greedier or more nefarious on the athletes' 19th birthday.

Yes, most gyms who have a group of L5 "adults" do not have enough to make a complete team out of them. The division as it stands allows them to create a team. The proposed change would leave those athletes with the option of going to a bigger gym (like CA or Stingrays), or not cheering.

The majority of the division consolidations that I have heard proposed would basically just mash current divisions together. Few teams would really have to make any adjustments to their rosters - it would basically only affect them during awards. Changing the "international" age group would, IMO, have the net effect of slicing a small group of athletes from our sport. (without even decreasing the number of divisions)

 

[FamousxMindset]

What if the usaf people set like a certain score that you had to meet or exceed to make into finals (ex. 8.7). Any number of team from a country as long as the got a total score of 8.7. Thats still giving foreign teams a fair chance especially with old new schoresheets.

 

[King]

What if the usaf people set like a certain score that you had to meet or exceed to make into finals (ex. 8.7). Any number of team from a country as long as the got a total score of 8.7. Thats still giving foreign teams a fair chance especially with old new schoresheets.

So being honest, that still puts the foreign teams at a disadvantage. Too low a score too many get in. Too high a score and many will complain while all the US teams likely make it in. The problem is the division is filling two needs: the one allowing people older than 18+ and the one allowing international teams to have a chance to make top 10 easily.

While I wouldn't consider it "harvesting" them to turn a profit, you are essentially correct in the way that you sum it up. For better or worse, gyms must eventually at least break even to stay in business and provide the services that they do. Whether they are eeking out a living from teaching 4 year olds or 24 year olds, it all essentially functions the same way. The kids or their parents pay tuition in return for the serves they get. The gym doesn't get any greedier or more nefarious on the athletes' 19th birthday.

Yes, most gyms who have a group of L5 "adults" do not have enough to make a complete team out of them. The division as it stands allows them to create a team. The proposed change would leave those athletes with the option of going to a bigger gym (like CA or Stingrays), or not cheering.

The majority of the division consolidations that I have heard proposed would basically just mash current divisions together. Few teams would really have to make any adjustments to their rosters - it would basically only affect them during awards. Changing the "international" age group would, IMO, have the net effect of slicing a small group of athletes from our sport. (without even decreasing the number of divisions)

Ok, knowing that these teams allow your level 5's to compete after age 18 and you to build teams I ask this question. IF there was no Worlds division would you still field this team and work for it to be a premier team in your gym? Or will you field an Open Level 4 team (if it passes) to help take advantage of those level 4 athletes (who most likely outnumber Level 5 looking at a cheerleading skill pyramid) to further your business?

 

[FamousxMindset]

IMO at worlds no one should be getting in the top ten easily. Even if we made it easier that would be almost eliminating tumbling. We gave them better chances with the scoresheet. It just annoys me that we have other amazing teams from USA not making day two but a squad who has no other skills besides stunting placing in finals,. I think we should judge what they put on the mat, rather than where theyre from.

 

[flipmac]

IMO at worlds no one should be getting in the top ten easily. Even if we made it easier that would be almost eliminating tumbling. We gave them better chances with the scoresheet. It just annoys me that we have other amazing teams from USA not making day two but a squad who has no other skills besides stunting placing in finals,. I think we should judge what they put on the mat, rather than where theyre from.

well who decides what is worth more on the mat?? why is it fair for a USA score sheet to be forced upon other nations who may have historically had a much stronger focus on other skills? who's to say tumbling should be worth anything at all, just because the USA has made cheering a very tumbling focused aspect of a routine, why should the rest of the world follow that?

this is playing devils advocate btw

 

[youbetterwork]

well who decides what is worth more on the mat?? why is it fair for a USA score sheet to be forced upon other nations who may have historically had a much stronger focus on other skills? who's to say tumbling should be worth anything at all, just because the USA has made cheering a very tumbling focused aspect of a routine, why should the rest of the world follow that?

this is playing devils advocate btw

I really liked that point of view. Everyone is really focusing how it's done in the US, because it has the largest number of cheerleaders and also hosting Worlds. But this is WORLDS and this is a international division. Think outside US, people.

 

[socratesofcheer]

I really liked that point of view. Everyone is really focusing how it's done in the US, because it has the largest number of cheerleaders and also hosting Worlds. But this is WORLDS and this is a international division. Think outside US, people.

The reason that everyone focuses on how its done here, is because....

We started cheerleading.

 

[youbetterwork]

The reason that everyone focuses on how its done here, is because....

We started cheerleading.

Haha well, I'm not stupid. But that sentence doesn't really work, huh? Of course US have the biggest influence and probably always will, but that doesn't mean everything should be done exactly like US on a World Championship.

 

[King]

Haha well, I'm not stupid. But that sentence doesn't really work, huh? Of course US have the biggest influence and probably always will, but that doesn't mean everything should be done exactly like US on a World Championship.

Why not? If Cheer Athletics keeps winning a division and they spend a lot of time on stunting, wouldn't it make sense to learn from who is the best and try to do, maybe in your own way, what they are doing?

Why wouldnt other countries try and model some of what they do after the US, and we run OUR competitions for the best interest of the US?

 

[socratesofcheer]

Haha well, I'm not stupid. But that sentence doesn't really work, huh? Of course US have the biggest influence and probably always will, but that doesn't mean everything should be done exactly like US on a World Championship.

If Sweden started the sport of bobsledding and Jamaica wanted to participate, the rules at the World Championships shouldn't be different because Jamaica doesn't have the same weather, facilities, etc.

 

[F!ERCE]

If Sweden started the sport of bobsledding and Jamaica wanted to participate, the rules at the World Championships shouldn't be different because Jamaica doesn't have the same weather, facilities, etc.

"Jamaica we have a bobsled team..."

 

[youbetterwork]

Why not? If Cheer Athletics keeps winning a division and they spend a lot of time on stunting, wouldn't it make sense to learn from who is the best and try to do, maybe in your own way, what they are doing?

Why wouldnt other countries try and model some of what they do after the US, and we run OUR competitions for the best interest of the US?

I agree with you, of course US is the biggest influence for us international teams. You guys are role models to us. I'm not saying that should change. Look at me, I'm obsessed by the allstar world and I haven't even been to a US competiton. But I'm talking about Worlds, that is a competition hosted in the US yes, but still is a World Championship! Not a National Championship. So IMO it's good that they adapt the international divisions a bit. NOT saying I don't prefer watching the US teams in finals over some random country... But that it is a World Championship and that different countries have slightly different focus on things in their routines.

I'm looking forward to see how the scores will be in int all girl, where the international teams are closer to the US than in int coed.

P.S. I sosososo wish the best European teams could compete Worlds. But they won't this season.

 

[King]

"Jamaica we have a bobsled team..."

We have the one dareece and the one Yule Brenner.

The fastest of the fastest Jamaican sprinters.

I agree with you, of course US is the biggest influence for us international teams. You guys are role models to us. I'm not saying that should change. Look at me, I'm obsessed by the allstar world and I haven't even been to a US competiton. But I'm talking about Worlds, that is a competition hosted in the US yes, but still is a World Championship! Not a National Championship. So IMO it's good that they adapt the international divisions a bit. NOT saying I don't prefer watching the US teams in finals over some random country... But that it is a World Championship and that different countries have slightly different focus on things in their routines.

I'm looking forward to see how the scores will be in int all girl, where the international teams are closer to the US than in int coed.

P.S. I sosososo wish the best European teams could compete Worlds. But they won't this season.

The International teams might come close in the Worlds building competitions, that is true. But they in no way shape or form are close to a Worlds cheerleading championship. Cheerleading is not just baskets, pyramids and stunts. It is tumbling, jumps, transitions, dance, and all the things that make this sport unique. So a balanced scoresheet that makes sense rewarding ALL parts of cheerleading, not just those other countries are only good at, makes the most sense. It is not like all the countries in South America are bad at the beam in gymnastics, but to encourage more South American countries to compete in gymnastics at the Olympics they devalue the beam. Why would we want our sport to be any different?

 

[King]

I would love to do a study on how allstar cheerleading has blown up the way it has, but if I had to point to one thing I would say it was.... tumbling.

Why tumbling?

Tumbling is not a skill you can not really start or learn later in life. Yes we all have heard or know stories of people learning skills at 15 and being level 5 in 2 months, but in general tumbling takes years for females to acquire. The US had a high school cheer system creating demand for this tumbling even before allstar was anything (think 20 years ago). In fact I think Cheer Athletics began as a tumbling class in a field? I imagine that was for High School cheering (but BlueCat can confirm or deny). So people could build gyms to teach tumbling for cheerleading, no allstars required (or really worth anything at that moment). That is the basis for allstar cheer. All these tumbling gyms then had the athletes and infrastructure to hold private competitions.

Internationally it has gone completely differently. There are no gyms or tumbling classes to even closely resemble what happens in the Us. There is no steady income to create these gyms. There is no backbone to build an industry on. So UNTIL tumbling becomes important and people create gyms to teach kids tumbling to build international industries and an international infrastructure all the other countries will lag behind. That is why making tumbling not worth anything on an international scoresheet doesnt HELP anyone. Short term gains for long term detriments.

PS - This is why the importance of tumbling to allstar cheerleading should NEVER be diminished (aka made worth less than stunting or anything else). The industry is built on tumbling classes. Make all skills in cheer worth the same and you always have a reason for a gym to have tumbling classes.

 

[youbetterwork]

If Sweden started the sport of bobsledding and Jamaica wanted to participate, the rules at the World Championships shouldn't be different because Jamaica doesn't have the same weather, facilities, etc.

Good point... But there isn't any changing of rules here. Just some adaptations. US is probably the only country with good enough facilities to be that good at tumbling. European teams will never ever be better at tumbling. Not now, not in 20 years. We will always have a big disadvantage. The adapations makes it a closer competition in some few divisions.
Btw, tried really hard to make a reference to the bobsledding example, but it didn't turn out that good... Lol.

One question! Is/was people upset about the scoresheets for ICU Worlds? Since they are rewarding stunting a lot more than tumbling. (Sorry for getting out of subject, this thread wasn't about the scoresheets... Just thought about it when I looked at the scoresheets a minute ago.)