All-Star Usasf Major Changes

[yojaehs]

So are you for or against implementing the 50%+1 rule as being MAX for tumbling scoring? Not being snarky, just curious because I generally agree with most of your opinions and posts haha.

I didn't read any information on that (I was still in shock when I read THEATRICAL and NO bounding) so I got a bit distracted. I'm not for a 50 +1 because I think it's a cop out, but at the same time I know judges have been complaining about not being able to count (large teams). I guess I'd like to know more about this, does a 50+1 lose to a 50+5. Level 2 does 50 + 1 robhs lose to 50 +1 robhs step out robhs. Is it just to get IN the range or does it MAX. So far all I've been reading is that the USASF would like me as a tumbling coach to become unemployed so at this point anything they say that diminishes the amount of required tumbling would not surprise me.

 

[cheerinfo]

I didn't read any information on that (I was still in shock when I read THEATRICAL and NO bounding) so I got a bit distracted. I'm not for a 50 +1 because I think it's a cop out, but at the same time I know judges have been complaining about not being able to count (large teams). I guess I'd like to know more about this, does a 50+1 lose to a 50+5. Level 2 does 50 + 1 robhs lose to 50 +1 robhs step out robhs. Is it just to get IN the range or does it MAX. So far all I've been reading is that the USASF would like me as a tumbling coach to become unemployed so at this point anything they say that diminishes the amount of required tumbling would not surprise me.

From what I could tell and from what I have discussed with others, 50%+1 would be the MAX. So if you have 50%+5, doesn't get you any more points. So full squad becomes unnecessary. And I would think from a judging point of view that counting 50%+1 is just as hard or harder than seeing that it is MOST of the squad. I can tell if there are only 3 kids not doing the skill that they have almost full squad skills. If you are having to count to see that they have at LEAST 11 (small squad) doing it, you are having to actually COUNT as opposed to eyeballing it. I think 75% is a better compromise than 50%+1. That is just dumbing down and making cheerleading EASIER, which seems to be what they want to do anyway. Well, this would accomplish that.

 

[Deleted member 15]

How does this play out regarding international divisions at worlds?

I don't know. Hopefully they'll release something over the summer to let everyone know.

 

[Deleted member 15]

cheerinfo yojaehs

"One of the primary concerns related to the negative impact of the increased focus on elite tumbling skills. Most programs report an increase in the number and severity of injuries as the tumbling skills become more difficult. The focus on elite tumbling also restricts the growth of the sport because it limits the type of athletes who can compete. It was agreed among these event producers to use score sheets that maximize tumbling scores at “half plus one” to create a majority. This will allow for more diversity of athletes among all teams. Beyond tumbling recommendations, the group also proposed several changes to the age grid and divisions including establishing a minimum age in all senior divisions. There were various reasons for all the changes but the consensus was that all these changes would enhance the sport and were necessary."

 

[flcheermom]

Have any judges been asked to give any input regarding the 50% + 1? just wondering, why the change? - were there any complaints from judges regarding not being able to score teams adequately on the current system?

 

[yojaehs]

From what I could tell and from what I have discussed with others, 50%+1 would be the MAX. So if you have 50%+5, doesn't get you any more points. So full squad becomes unnecessary. And I would think from a judging point of view that counting 50%+1 is just as hard or harder than seeing that it is MOST of the squad. I can tell if there are only 3 kids not doing the skill that they have almost full squad skills. If you are having to count to see that they have at LEAST 11 (small squad) doing it, you are having to actually COUNT as opposed to eyeballing it. I think 75% is a better compromise than 50%+1. That is just dumbing down and making cheerleading EASIER, which seems to be what they want to do anyway. Well, this would accomplish that.

Ok, not for that at all, but like I said before, I need to start looking for another job (jk I'm a fighter and won't go quietly lol). Here is my confusion, the World's score sheet this year opened up the "top range" because there is so much difficulty and they separation in years past was too close so this would allow more freedom in judging. I don't understand now doing the reverse, but then again this is tumbling so UCA, I mean Varsity, I mean USASF or whoever don't care. This also accomplishes the reverse of what they are trying to accomplish. If you require a larger % of your team to sync, you sync to your lower skills, (haven't seen squad double punch doubles yet) At most, I've seen a large number of robhs doubles. The focus (at least at my gym recently) hasn't been as much on the elite skills, more on each kid tumbling the same.

Well that helped nothing, I'm still confused as to what the "goal" is?

 

[cheerinfo]

cheerinfo yojaehs

"One of the primary concerns related to the negative impact of the increased focus on elite tumbling skills. Most programs report an increase in the number and severity of injuries as the tumbling skills become more difficult. The focus on elite tumbling also restricts the growth of the sport because it limits the type of athletes who can compete. It was agreed among these event producers to use score sheets that maximize tumbling scores at “half plus one” to create a majority. This will allow for more diversity of athletes among all teams. Beyond tumbling recommendations, the group also proposed several changes to the age grid and divisions including establishing a minimum age in all senior divisions. There were various reasons for all the changes but the consensus was that all these changes would enhance the sport and were necessary."

Who is "most programs"? And do they have this all documented? And over how long a period of time? I can tell you that I ran a gymnastics and cheer gym for 7 years...and MOST injuries did NOT come from elite skills. And yes, it was all documented accident reports, follow ups, etc. MOST injuries were accidents on VERY silly things. Round offs, BHSs, jumps on the beam (gymnastics part of business), wrist injuries on bars, tripping on the springboard on vault, bouncing too high on a trampoline, etc. NOT on elite skills. So to just say "most programs report....", to me, is just not enough information and is NOT conclusive. Were these elite gyms or little gyms with uncertified coaches or unqualified coaches? Were these problems with the SKILLS or the ATHLETES performing those skills? Kids need to be physically AND mentally prepared for EVERY skill they learn from a back walkover through double fulls. I simply do not believe the above statement, especially without VERY detailed proof to back it up over a period of several years.

And I know Andre did not write this information, so I am not attacking you directly haha. But this "information" is just not credible to me.

Wanted to tag yojaehs in this as well

 

[yojaehs]

cheerinfo yojaehs

"One of the primary concerns related to the negative impact of the increased focus on elite tumbling skills. Most programs report an increase in the number and severity of injuries as the tumbling skills become more difficult. The focus on elite tumbling also restricts the growth of the sport because it limits the type of athletes who can compete. It was agreed among these event producers to use score sheets that maximize tumbling scores at “half plus one” to create a majority. This will allow for more diversity of athletes among all teams. Beyond tumbling recommendations, the group also proposed several changes to the age grid and divisions including establishing a minimum age in all senior divisions. There were various reasons for all the changes but the consensus was that all these changes would enhance the sport and were necessary."

I know you are just passing along the information you receive or hear but I still can't wrap my head around it. I'm not sure how this is restricting the sports involvement? My gym has grown every year I've been there and gyms are setting up more and more satellites because the demand is increasing. Are there many gyms that don't teach well that are struggling, yes, and I say good. I have said before that I personally agree with an age minimum per division/level. I'm aware that "they" felt this way, but again, eliminating the elite tumblers helps nothing.

So who are the "cheerlebrities" most well known? I'd say Kiara, Whitney, Maddie, one of the three is for stunting. The other two, I would consider the two top, elite female tumblers in the country (yes there are others but I think we all agree they are the most well known). Your telling me these girls haven't INCREASED involvement? Your joking right? I feel those three have gone above and beyond as ambassadors for the sport.

I said this before and I'll say it again, if the "gym down the street" doesn't want to put in the time to train their coaches, ask their kids to act/dress appropriately then I say A. It's their choice/right and B. Good for my gym because we do. If "bad gyms" are losing kids, AWESOME!!! Not a bad thing for the sport. EP's are seeing a decrease in events bc A. They are too expensive B. There are TOO many comps. I can't speak for all programs but we chose less # of events but higher quality. Because my gym (insert other gyms too) is doing well, don't bring us down to "their" level, focus on bringing them "boom boom" Hot Pink/Lime Green/Fascia Camo-Allstars UP to ours.

 

[CatFan22]

From what I could tell and from what I have discussed with others, 50%+1 would be the MAX. So if you have 50%+5, doesn't get you any more points. So full squad becomes unnecessary. And I would think from a judging point of view that counting 50%+1 is just as hard or harder than seeing that it is MOST of the squad. I can tell if there are only 3 kids not doing the skill that they have almost full squad skills. If you are having to count to see that they have at LEAST 11 (small squad) doing it, you are having to actually COUNT as opposed to eyeballing it. I think 75% is a better compromise than 50%+1. That is just dumbing down and making cheerleading EASIER, which seems to be what they want to do anyway. Well, this would accomplish that.

See, I interpreted this differently.

It was agreed among these event producers to use score sheets that maximize tumbling scores at "half plus one" to create a majority.​

I looked at it as saying that those EP's all agreed to define their majority as "half plus one". So, in order to get into the maximum range for tumbling scores, you need a majority...."half plus 1" creates that majority.

I went back and looked at the scoring grids for Varsity, Jam Brands, and Cheersport. They all had different requirements for getting into their max scoring ranges. Varsity just stated "majority" but didn't define majority. Jam Brands stated "majority" and defined it as half plus 1. Cheersport's ranges are divided out by thirds (which is completely different). Maybe all these EPs just decided that they would all agree on what they would require to get into that max range.

I could be way off base here, though. Just my interpretation of their verbiage. It would be pretty ridiculous if EVERY team was able to achieve a perfect score on tumbling difficulty at every comp. Seems silly! I really hope that's not the case.

 

[flcheermom]

So, if they change the tumbling restrictions rule, and allow some of the tumbling back - will the 50% + 1 rule also be changed, ? since they seem to be tying the two rules together - that the elite tumbling, is responsible for increased injuries...

So if this stays... then how can synchronized tumbling weigh so heavy on the scoresheet if you only need 11 on a small team to do it? the other 9 could just stand around?, if they wanted, and that team would score the same as a team that had all 20 throw synchronized passes?... I am just trying to understand the reasoning/scoring process...

 

[cheerinfo]

See, I interpreted this differently.

It was agreed among these event producers to use score sheets that maximize tumbling scores at "half plus one" to create a majority.​

I looked at it as saying that those EP's all agreed to define their majority as "half plus one". So, in order to get into the maximum range for tumbling scores, you need a majority...."half plus 1" creates that majority.

I went back and looked at the scoring grids for Varsity, Jam Brands, and Cheersport. They all had different requirements for getting into their max scoring ranges. Varsity just stated "majority" but didn't define majority. Jam Brands stated "majority" and defined it as half plus 1. Cheersport's ranges are divided out by thirds (which is completely different). Maybe all these EPs just decided that they would all agree on what they would require to get into that max range.

I could be way off base here, though. Just my interpretation of their verbiage. It would be pretty ridiculous if EVERY team was able to achieve a perfect score on tumbling difficulty at every comp. Seems silly! I really hope that's not the case.

I can only tell you that several people of reliable stature seemed to indicate that full squad would be rewarded the SAME as a team with just over 50%. IF I am incorrect in this thought, someone who is in a REAL place to speak differently, PLEASE do so. To hear that full squad tumbling will still, hands down, beat a team with 50%+1 would be GREAT news.

 

[lakerfantlc]

All in all I think there is more going on than safety. I mean really!!! This sport has grown at a rate that is amazing. There are injuries in all sports. ALL SPORTS PROGRESS...injuries or not. We must not let the few destroy the masses. Another fine example of accountability 101....take care of your business or face consequences! How long does anyone think the NFL would have been around if (due to injuries) they suddenly came out with “ no more tackling..its causes injury so we are going to play flag football from now on”....or NASCAR...due to safety issues we will set a speed limit of 55 MPH....neither sport would exist today and we all know it....the cap on tumbling is a death sentence to EVERYONE. It will trickle down. I can’t tell you the number of kids who write Kiara everyday saying you inspired me to join cheer etc... I haven’t even mentioned the hit coaches will take regarding private lessons etc. Gym owners will suffer..there fore so to will EP’s and on and on and on....there is just no plus for the rules as they are written.

 

[CoachTamara]

I can only tell you that several people of reliable stature seemed to indicate that full squad would be rewarded the SAME as a team with just over 50%. IF I am incorrect in this thought, someone who is in a REAL place to speak differently, PLEASE do so. To hear that full squad tumbling will still, hands down, beat a team with 50%+1 would be GREAT news.

I understand where this comes from in a way... There are many kids that have a mental block or just are not tumblers that feel like they cannot continue with cheer because they are limited to lower level teams. I see where the USASF (or whoever is making decisions these days) thinks that this will help the sport grow, because even those kids will have a spot on a team.

Do I agree? Eh. I get one or two kids not tumbling, but 11 and 20 being the exact same score is a little ridiculous. At this point, I don't even care which way it goes but I want a REAL answer so I can make proper teams. Between age minimums, tumbling, score maximums, etc my try outs are up in the air waiting on decisions.

 

[Deleted member 15]

So who are the "cheerlebrities" most well known? I'd say Kiara, Whitney, Maddie, one of the three is for stunting. The other two, I would consider the two top, elite female tumblers in the country (yes there are others but I think we all agree they are the most well known). Your telling me these girls haven't INCREASED involvement? Your joking right? I feel those three have gone above and beyond as ambassadors for the sport.

Do these girls (or other cheerlebrities) act as ambassadors at non cheerleading events? I don't think seeing Whitney at NCA All Star increases participation in the sport because the only people that see her are already involved. I'm sure they motivate the people they see to aim higher, but I don't see much exposure to people not already involved.

 

[yojaehs]

Do these girls (or other cheerlebrities) act as ambassadors at non cheerleading events? I don't think seeing Whitney at NCA All Star increases participation in the sport because the only people that see her are already involved. I'm sure they motivate the people they see to aim higher, but I don't see much exposure to people not already involved.

I hear ya, but at my gym when new kids come in (levels 1-5 all stretch together) I hear their names brought up frequently and videos shared and discussed via phones. And on the flip side, is her standing tuck-double discouraging people from enrolling? Without it, the "WoW" factor is less. I understand what your saying, but I just can't wrap my head around "removing skills = increasing involvement"? When my kids are throwing the "elite" skills, the energy in my gym is HUGE, my level 2 kids see Sr. Black tumbling and immediately BEG me to spot them or let them work on tumbling. Why remove skills!? Or if you do, be smart about it. Again, I've said I can support no standing doubles, no double doubles (just for the visual that an effort is being made, NOT bc I think those kids are at risk) nor do I think these skills are deterring involvement.