All-Star Usasf Routine Interruption

[12stepCheermom]

First of all, I hope the poor guy is okay and that the medics were able to simply pop it back into place once he got off the mat.

Second of all, the fact that this routine continued in it's entirety is frightening to me. His injury was not subtle; one shoulder was clearly lower that the other and he was obviously in pain. The fact that he still even tried to base at one point with his one good arm scared the crap out of me; you could see how unstable that flyer was and fortunately no one else was hurt by his efforts to continue the routine despite his inability to safely base his flyer.

Saying that he made the right choice to continue and the coach made the right call not to stop the routine because the outcome was a paid bid is ridiculous. It implies that the safety of all the athletes on that mat, injured and non-injured, and all athletes who cheer actually, is 100% secondary to winning. I thought that was what was the USASF trying to avoid by making actual rules for Routine Interruption.

One thing to remember, people who have popped shoulders out of joint can have a tendency to do that a lot. It's like once you dislocate it it's almost easier to do later. This may not have been something the coaches haven't seen before and it may be something they've talked about (coach if it happens...don't stop it, I'll get it popped back in after). I've just seen recurring shoulder dislocations before, and while it look scary and hurts like crazy when it's out it may be something they have experience with at TG with this athlete.

 

[King]

Did not stopping the routine violate the routine stopping rules they set this year? If so are there any real consequences or are they just guidelines? While then end result was fine did someone just set a standard that in reality you can probably pushed through obvious injuries and still get a paid bid (as an example in people's minds... This is what little programs will try and do).

This is a very tough situation. It ended up fine but the precedent that is now set is not good.

 

[katstat1]

One thing to remember, people who have popped shoulders out of joint can have a tendency to do that a lot. It's like once you dislocate it it's almost easier to do later. This may not have been something the coaches haven't seen before and it may be something they've talked about (coach if it happens...don't stop it, I'll get it popped back in after). I've just seen recurring shoulder dislocations before, and while it look scary and hurts like crazy when it's out it may be something they have experience with at TG with this athlete.

If this was the case, all the more reason to stop the routine, get it put back into place and start over. If he couldn't base and was in obvious pain, why wouldn't they stop it?

 

[12stepCheermom]

If this was the case, all the more reason to stop the routine, get it put back into place and start over. If he couldn't base and was in obvious pain, why wouldn't they stop it?

All I'm saying is the athlete himself might've already had a discussion with the coach about what he could and couldn't do fur 2:30 if/when that happens.

 

[CheerBank]

One thing to remember, people who have popped shoulders out of joint can have a tendency to do that a lot. It's like once you dislocate it it's almost easier to do later. This may not have been something the coaches haven't seen before and it may be something they've talked about (coach if it happens...don't stop it, I'll get it popped back in after). I've just seen recurring shoulder dislocations before, and while it look scary and hurts like crazy when it's out it may be something they have experience with at TG with this athlete.

Something I was not aware of and very good point however he still tried to continue to base at one point and that concerned me. It still presents with a safety issue.

 

[CheerBank]

Did not stopping the routine violate the routine stopping rules they set this year? If so are there any real consequences or are they just guidelines? While then end result was fine did someone just set a standard that in reality you can probably pushed through obvious injuries and still get a paid bid (as an example in people's minds... This is what little programs will try and do).

This is a very tough situation. It ended up fine but the precedent that is now set is not good.

And once again we encounter the rules versus guidelines question....

 

[dawgshow]

Something I was not aware of and very good point however he still tried to continue to base at one point and that concerned me. It still presents with a safety issue.

True. Once he tried to base, that effects someone other than the injured party. That's when it crossed the safety line, IMO. if you want to risk injury to yourself, fine, just don't endanger another.

 

[King]

And once again we encounter the rules versus guidelines question....

From a legal standpoint I think it has to be rules. I think the people at TG had full control of the situation no matter how bad it looked. However what is the determination by a lawyer or rules person to say this coach had full control of the situation and this one didn't. If an athlete was hurt because of the non-stoppage of the routine because of an injury that coach and event would carry full responsibility.

In reality it should have been stopped.

 

[njallday]

a guideline is a suggestion; a rule can be enforced. there is no way to "enforce" this. what would be the solution? to penalize top gun to set an example for other gyms in the future? Automatic disqualification for hurting yourself? 10 point safety deduction? IMO penalizing the team would be somewhat ridiculous.

I just reread the "guideline".. now, it says it is up to the EP whether or not the team will be allowed to perform again if they stop the routine. (Pretend they didn't know about Lady Jags day 1 injury and cheersport allowing them to go again.) If they stopped, there is a chance CHEERSPORT would not allow them to perform again and they just wasted a lot of time and money getting to atlanta and not competing for a bid.

The "guidelines" also say that the athlete can only stop the routine if they are clearly injured or if an athlete is questionably injured and does not resume their role in the routine within 5 seconds of questionable injury. In hindsight and on video, the athlete is obviously clearly injured.. but he didn't fall on the ground and yell stop, so I'd call it a questionable injury during that routine (especially with how fast the routines are moving.) Did he not resume his role in the routine within 5 seconds? does resuming your role mean continuing to tumble/jump/stunt? or just to get to your next spot and continue moving through the motions of the routine?

The coaches, EP, and USASF did have the authority to stop the routine, but if I were them I'm not so sure I would have called it either. Sometimes I stand up too fast and my hip pops out of the socket. It debilitating and I can't move, but it usually pops right back in within a minute. So maybe the coaches wanted to give him a minute to see if he recovered. except in a 2:30 routine, the performance is basically over by then.

While I'm still not sure they would have stopped that routine, I think going forward it might help if EP's declared their stance on this guideline beforehand, much like they declare how they will distribute bids. Will you be allowed to perform again? Will their scores be affected? Obviously no one wants to get injured or perform again, but no one also wants to ruin anything for their entire ream.

 

[f5forever]

In my opinion it should have been stopped. The athlete may have told the coaches that he could continue (he was at the front of the floor for a bit), but as a coach, seeing an athlete take a hit like that and clearly see that something is physically wrong (his shoulders, pained facial expression, and NON-MOVING ARM), I would have to stop it. Even the fact that he misses choreo (does not continue with routine) for a bit, and then he basically stumbles to the back of the floor in the middle of the routine, that's a definite "stop the routine" moment.
I'm admitting now I do not know the whole situation. As stated earlier the coaches may have dealt with this injury from this athlete and it was not as serious/painful as it seemed. The decision was theirs. The athlete clearly wanted to continue, he got back into the routine, but I would have stopped the routine. They would have gotten a bid regardless.

 

[King]

a guideline is a suggestion; a rule can be enforced. there is no way to "enforce" this. what would be the solution? to penalize top gun to set an example for other gyms in the future? Automatic disqualification for hurting yourself? 10 point safety deduction? IMO penalizing the team would be somewhat ridiculous.

I just reread the "guideline".. now, it says it is up to the EP whether or not the team will be allowed to perform again if they stop the routine. (Pretend they didn't know about Lady Jags day 1 injury and cheersport allowing them to go again.) If they stopped, there is a chance CHEERSPORT would not allow them to perform again and they just wasted a lot of time and money getting to atlanta and not competing for a bid.

The "guidelines" also say that the athlete can only stop the routine if they are clearly injured or if an athlete is questionably injured and does not resume their role in the routine within 5 seconds of questionable injury. In hindsight and on video, the athlete is obviously clearly injured.. but he didn't fall on the ground and yell stop, so I'd call it a questionable injury during that routine (especially with how fast the routines are moving.) Did he not resume his role in the routine within 5 seconds? does resuming your role mean continuing to tumble/jump/stunt? or just to get to your next spot and continue moving through the motions of the routine?

The coaches, EP, and USASF did have the authority to stop the routine, but if I were them I'm not so sure I would have called it either. Sometimes I stand up too fast and my hip pops out of the socket. It debilitating and I can't move, but it usually pops right back in within a minute. So maybe the coaches wanted to give him a minute to see if he recovered. except in a 2:30 routine, the performance is basically over by then.

While I'm still not sure they would have stopped that routine, I think going forward it might help if EP's declared their stance on this guideline beforehand, much like they declare how they will distribute bids. Will you be allowed to perform again? Will their scores be affected? Obviously no one wants to get injured or perform again, but no one also wants to ruin anything for their entire ream.

Looking at the description of what quantifies injury I would say the athlete met 2 of the 3 statements. He did not participate in a single thing after his injury. If he was a spot for something could he have also still be considered a spot for legality? He was incapacitated from actually participating in the routine.

Taking names and individuals out of this (on a small scale I don't care that TG kept him in. I care more for what it means, stands for, and what precedent it is for the future) where was the breakdown in the system? Was it the 'guidelines', EP, or the gym?

 

[GreatWhite92]

The only thing about it that scares me is that he couldn't do anything. What happens when you get to a pyramid and someone unknowingly launches a flyer and your not physically able to catch her? Sure you can walk to your spots but that doesn't mean the routine should continue if only for the fact of the pyramid alone.

 

[GreatWhite92]

After watching the video...that routine should have been stopped. I about had a heart attack when he was holding a supporting prep with one hand while a girl flipped over it. Kudos to the athlete for trying but he shouldn't have had to...

 

[CheerBank]

Looking at the description of what quantifies injury I would say the athlete met 2 of the 3 statements. He did not participate in a single thing after his injury. If he was a spot for something could he have also still be considered a spot for legality? He was incapacitated from actually participating in the routine.

Taking names and individuals out of this (on a small scale I don't care that TG kept him in. I care more for what it means, stands for, and what precedent it is for the future) where was the breakdown in the system? Was it the 'guidelines', EP, or the gym?

Watch the video again. He is basing using one arm. Around 1:58.

 

[King]

Watch the video again. He is basing using one arm. Around 1:58.

1:45 after not doing anything else. Does that make it ok?