All-Star Very Important!! New Tumbling Rules Questions. We Need Your Help.

[CoachKelly]

I don't know if I have a right to post here. I coach an All-Star team but its a small team and we compete locally. We are not Regional or National material. My Co-Coach and I do this to give our girls something to do in our small town, I know when one of our girls finally reach the ability to do a standing BHS or ROBHS they are so proud of themselves. We are a team that would benefit from half+1. But then again, we don't go to USASF Comps., but we do follow USASF rules for the Comps we attend. We don't teach Tumbling, the girls go elsewhere. We know how to spot them but we don't teach them. I personally don't think taking it away is the answers and maybe there is not a direct answer. But the bigger deduction is one possibility even around here. We have Coaches that push girls to do more tumbling that they are not ready for or to even "fake" it for a higher score. I also think if you take away from one part they will just start pushing the envelope elsewhere and the injuries will still exist. But I would also love to see more classes offered. I don't know about a weeks worth, that would be hard for most people to attend. I hope a reasonable solution is figured out and the Sport continues to grow. Thanks, SmallTown USA

 

[5-6-7-8]

To answer the questions asked:

1. Reason to limit tumbling- nothing additional

2. Reason NOT to limit (upper level 5) tumbling - It only addresses elite level 5 skills, it does nothing to improve safety at levels 1-5R. If we follow the thought that a poor full / double may come all the way back to an improper round off or back handspring, we are only addressing the final product.

I agree with most that limiting tumbling is the "wrong" answer to the problem. Tumbling injuries result from poor technique and true accidents (the level 3 athlete who sprains a wrist doing a cartwheel.) Can't really prevent true accidents, so looking at the causes of poor technique we can look at 2 components (there may be more), 1) inadequate coaching and 2) a desire to "rush" skills into a routine (at ALL levels). Two ways we can address the root of the problem are stricter training / certification for coaches and incentive NOT to rush the skills on the scoresheet (deductions / hits in execution).

Inadequate coaching -------------------> Coaching certification​

Poor Technique

Desire to rush skills into routine------> Scoresheet built NOT to reward poor technique (deductions/ execution hit)​

​

By addressing technique through coaching and scoresheet changes, safety is now addressed from level 1 on up.

 

[CharlotteASMom]

I hope this is included with the discussion.

Level 5 athletes being injured throwing a lower level skill should be counted with level 5 athletes being injured throwing a higher level skill. What skill was thrown at the time of the injury doesn't take in account any damage that may have been done before.

 

[wcdad]

I hope this is included with the discussion.

Level 5 athletes being injured throwing a lower level skill should be counted with level 5 athletes being injured throwing a higher level skill. What skill was thrown at the time of the injury doesn't take in account any damage that may have been done before.

You have hit the nail on the head! The reverse can also be said that injuries at the level 5 can be contributed to lower levels as well as that can be where the injury was manifested

 

[gymcatmomx2]

You do not have to be throwing elite tumbling skills for an injury to occur. How many people have gotten injured on back handsprings? Jumps? Tucks? Whether it be poor coaching or poor choices, injuries occur every day in every sport (and non-sport) at every level! I don't believe that removing the most elite tumbling skills from the equation is going to keep the majority of kids from being injured. Those amazing tumblers are still going to throw their skills...just not at comps!

What I'd love to know is what is being done to address concussions in this sport? A sprained ankle heals... A damaged brain is a different story! The concussions in cheer are happening during stunting primarily. If tumbling is reduced to a cookie cutter level for level 5, you know that teams are just going to push the envelope with stunting, resulting in increased accidents like concussions. Is that ok because it's less visible on the floor...you don't wear an ankle or knee brace for a damaged brain?

I completely agree with this post. My oldest CP suffered a concussion and she's not a flyer!! An all-star cheerleader broke her angle 2 weeks ago performing a toe touch! One of the worst injuries that I've witnessed was from a round off rebound where the cheerleader put her hand back to catch herself and broke her arm in 2 places. I do have to give props to our coaches... after the girl broke her arm on the rebound, our coaches spent the next few practices teaching the girls how to land properly and how to NOT catch themselves. So even skills as simple as a round off or a toe touch can cause serious injuries.

 

[ntlgnt1]

I hope this is included with the discussion.

Level 5 athletes being injured throwing a lower level skill should be counted with level 5 athletes being injured throwing a higher level skill. What skill was thrown at the time of the injury doesn't take in account any damage that may have been done before.

This got me to thinking about how many kids from lvl 1-4 get injured and wear braces as opposed to lvl 5? In addition, how many girls cheer on a HS team as well as all-star and got hurt on thier HS team? The team my daughter was on last year had 3-4 girls get injured cheering for thier HS, not w/the all star program. This rule is making a huge assumption!

My daughter got injured trying to save her stunt. But has never had a problem doing her standing full, which she was worked so hard to master!

 

[Reallycoolcheermommy]

I have been asked by a few people who will be in the meetings in the next couple days to discuss the new tumbling rules to pose questions to the general public. This is very important though you follow the two guidelines I set.

The USASF posed the new tumbling rules because they are concerned about the rising number of injuries in tumbling. Besides decreasing injury (meaning do not mention that reason) are there other reasons the tumbling rules should be stricter?

On the reverse everyone keeps arguing that taking away these skills is a blow to the kids who have worked so hard. Out side of that (aka don't mention that) are there other reasons the tumbling skills should not be removed?

It is very important you do not rehash those two or reasons OR just say 'because'. You want your voice heard answer these questions well. I shall ban anyone for a day who says the two reasons to not be mentioned. Thanks for your help.

I know I am probably going to be banned for this, but here goes...
REASONS TO LIMIT TUMBLING or MAKE THEM STRICTER:
If a skill is causing numerous serious or catastrophic injuries then if should be removed or made stricter. However, to do so would mean a lot of stunts and running tumbling would need to go before these full skills, right??

Also, you may think this is leveling the playing field but it isn't and the "restricted level" teams won't have a chance of really being able to hold their own with the teams that are basically competing down a level.
(example, you may have a strong, solid level 3 team, but it most likely will never beat your solid level 4 competing as a 3) Sandbagging would never be an issue if this weren't true. Plus, you should never dumb things down so others can catch up, It's anti.... Um something... O, it's unsportsmanlike, not competitive and fundamentally goes completely against competitive All-Star cheer.

ARE THERE OTHER REASONS THAT THESE NEW RULES SHOULD NOT BE REMOVED? No. They are illogical and janky.
If you keep these full rules (that most can't even do) citing that it's the best way to make this sport safer and have substantialy less injuries then you have no real comprehension of this sport or you have possibly sustained a severe head injury yourself and need to seek medical attention because you are not making any logical sense at this point.




Reallycoolcheermommy Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[a0159945]

Tumbling should not be restricted because all it does is try to solve the RIGHT problem the WRONG way. Do kids get hurt tumbling because of bad coaching? Sure. Do kids with great coaches get hurt tumbling? Absolutely. They need to look harder at the real problem of why kids are getting hurt, and the answer is actually fairly simple: tumbling is hard and tumbling is dangerous. The best way USASF or AACCA or anyone else can combat this is with proper safety instruction. At a time, all of us have probably coached a cheerleading squad or spotted tumbling. I know for a fact the AACCA safety tests that are required at camps for coaches are a joke. It's open book and the test is orally discussed and answered as a class which results in no one really learning anything. USASF and AACCA should offer rigorous safety courses that require a mandatory passing grade by gym owners as well as all of their staff in order for said gym to compete at any competition under USASF. I don't mean some hour long test. I'm talking a safety course. Perhaps, a week long class that lasts a few hours a day that covers everything from stunting safely to practicing proper progression when teaching tumbling. Would this course suck? Absolutely. But it will keep our cheerleaders as safe as possible without watering down what skills are allowed. As long as USASF and/or AACCA does all they can to ensure the safety of all cheerleaders, they are doing their job. At some point responsibility needs to fall on the shoulders of the coaches, or even the cheerleaders who may be practicing skills that are too hard on their own. A big problem is just about anyone can coach tumbling as long as they have "experience." This means everyone is teaching differently and everyone is progressing differently. If USASF can force harsh safety classes, certifications, and qualifications for all gyms and their staff that wish to have teams participate at competitions USASF is hosting, that would be a decent amount of damage control and ensure that USASF has used everything at their disposal to keep cheerleaders safe. And at that point, it comes down to how the coaches and cheerleaders handle themselves at practice--a variable that USASF cannot control, and, the place where most of these accidents are happening.

Kids are also getting hurt at all levels because their bodies are not conditioned for tumbling; why require that gym make conditioning part of the program

 

[cheer momma]

Absolutely 100% not in favor for the US ASF proposed tumbling changes. My daughter is a level V athletes who sustained a serious injury during warm-ups at a competition two years ago. she broke both her tibula and her fibula throwing a double full on the warm-up floor. The floor had more spring in it than she was used to it. Her injury was a complete fluke. She healed in five weeks and came back that season to and threw her double full. My suggestions for making our sport safer are:
1. Certify the coaches. Coaches should be certified like nurses or teachers are certified. Certification should be given once a year should be written and also hands on. Coaches should be be required to attend workshops to accumulate hours of training to keep their certifications. Gyms without certified coaches should not be
to attend US ASF sanctioned events
2. Make the score sheet so a perfect full is worth more than a "scarey" double.
3. Have a safety deduction for a team with multiple major tumbling falls. For example if a team has 4 touch downs and 4 major falls it is considered a safety violation and the team get a 15 or 25 point deduction.
4. Accumulate the safety deductions for the year. If a team has 3 safety deductions in one year the team can not participate in that level or any level above until the following year.
5. Standardize the equipment. Competitions must have warm up floors and competition floors with springs a certain size and pound ratings. Fliors need to have x amount of springs per square inch and thickness of the floors should all be the same. This way the floors will all feel the same to the athletes. Have inspectors come into the competitions to inspect the equipment. Violations can result in fines, pulling of usasf's license etc.

I hope my suggestions help. I would really hate to see the tumbling rules changed. The sport of cheerleading just wouldn't be the same without the high level tumbling and stunting. I definitely think that if these tumbling restrictions are out into place you will see a drop in interest in cheerleading as a sport.

 

[cheercurl]

Absolutely 100% not in favor for the US ASF proposed tumbling changes. My daughter is a level V athletes who sustained a serious injury during warm-ups at a competition two years ago. she broke both her tibula and her fibula throwing a double full on the warm-up floor. The floor had more spring in it than she was used to it. Her injury was a complete fluke. She healed in five weeks and came back that season to and threw her double full. My suggestions for making our sport safer are:
1. Certify the coaches. Coaches should be certified like nurses or teachers are certified. Certification should be given once a year should be written and also hands on. Coaches should be be required to attend workshops to accumulate hours of training to keep their certifications. Gyms without certified coaches should not be
to attend US ASF sanctioned events
2. Make the score sheet so a perfect full is worth more than a "scarey" double.
3. Have a safety deduction for a team with multiple major tumbling falls. For example if a team has 4 touch downs and 4 major falls it is considered a safety violation and the team get a 15 or 25 point deduction.
4. Accumulate the safety deductions for the year. If a team has 3 safety deductions in one year the team can not participate in that level or any level above until the following year.
5. Standardize the equipment. Competitions must have warm up floors and competition floors with springs a certain size and pound ratings. Fliors need to have x amount of springs per square inch and thickness of the floors should all be the same. This way the floors will all feel the same to the athletes. Have inspectors come into the competitions to inspect the equipment. Violations can result in fines, pulling of usasf's license etc.

I hope my suggestions help. I would really hate to see the tumbling rules changed. The sport of cheerleading just wouldn't be the same without the high level tumbling and stunting. I definitely think that if these tumbling restrictions are out into place you will see a drop in interest in cheerleading as a sport.

I like this....this would also address the issue of the Janky tumbling issue and I agree about warm-ups. Master a skill like a double or you could get a safety deduction...viola', no gym is going to risk a 20 point deduction to throw a skill that might or might not hit. No gym is going to let an athlete throw a possible headstand, incomplete double, under rotated full or sloppy standing.

 

[buffyyy]

It's the athlete's decision to realize what they are/aren't capable of throwing, and it's the coach's job to either support this skill after seeing the trick performed enough times by the athlete or to not let the athlete throw the skill. Simple as that. I don't know about y'all, but I don't want this sport to become "Bring It On", but its well on it's way if these rules continue to pop up.

 

[Mclovin]

I really don't know if this example is a good one but something I have seen with my CP this past week...She suffered a fracture through her growth plate and tibia in January. Last Wednesday she was released from the doctor to return to activities as tolerated. I told her she could do skills as long as there was no pain. Well on Wednesday night she was already doing back handsprings. By Thursday night she was doing standing tucks on the hard floor (foam). I was shocked at how quickly she was recovering...but wait...now it's one week later and her knee (on the recovering leg) is hurting her. Why? Because she pushed herself too hard too fast and the muscles in that leg are not very strong yet. So the knee is not being protected the way it should be by strong muscles. Mentally, she thought she was ready. Her ankle/fracture area felt great. But she is learning now that the REST of her leg may not be ready and THAT's why the PT said not to do anything til her strength was 100%. So, IMO, if she continues to train before her leg is conditioned and re-strengthened properly, she will incur a knee injury. The point of this story being, we need to condition our athletes....weak muscles = injured ligaments.

 

[cheer momma]

I really don't know if this example is a good one but something I have seen with my CP this past week...She suffered a fracture through her growth plate and tibia in January. Last Wednesday she was released from the doctor to return to activities as tolerated. I told her she could do skills as long as there was no pain. Well on Wednesday night she was already doing back handsprings. By Thursday night she was doing standing tucks on the hard floor (foam). I was shocked at how quickly she was recovering...but wait...now it's one week later and her knee (on the recovering leg) is hurting her. Why? Because she pushed herself too hard too fast and the muscles in that leg are not very strong yet. So the knee is not being protected the way it should be by strong muscles. Mentally, she thought she was ready. Her ankle/fracture area felt great. But she is learning now that the REST of her leg may not be ready and THAT's why the PT said not to do anything til her strength was 100%. So, IMO, if she continues to train before her leg is conditioned and re-strengthened properly, she will incur a knee injury. The point of this story being, we need to condition our athletes....weak muscles = injured ligaments.

 

[cheer momma]

I'm really sorry to hear your daughter's injury. Tell your daughter slow and steady wins the race. My daughter broke her leg in December got the cast off in January and worked her way back to a double in April. every week after she got her cast off she would throw one new skill. Back handspring then tucks then layouts then full. She would work one skill on the tumble track and a different skill on the floor. The next week she would take the skill from the tumble track to the floor and start a new skill on the tumble track. She conditioned nightly and she always stopped tumbling when her leg hurt. The more she conditioned and tumbled the less and less it hurt. She actually had to rebuild the muscle in the broken leg. Tell your daughter to take one step at a time. I'm sure she will be back full force before you know it.

Side note: my daughter is a level 5 tumbler and flyer. About a year ago she started to complain her back hurt. I finally took her to the doctors. We had exrays none scans pt and guess what we discovered? Her abs are so strong (she has a six pack) but her back muscles and inner fire muscles are not as strong. The entire circle of an muscles need to be the same strength or you will have back pain. He gave her a series of inner core and back exercises to do. The pain went away. Our gym actually had the pt come in to train the coaches on additional core exercises. I wish I could share these exercises with everyone. Maybe I'll see if my daughter will make a video

 

[cheercurl]

I really don't know if this example is a good one but something I have seen with my CP this past week...She suffered a fracture through her growth plate and tibia in January. Last Wednesday she was released from the doctor to return to activities as tolerated. I told her she could do skills as long as there was no pain. Well on Wednesday night she was already doing back handsprings. By Thursday night she was doing standing tucks on the hard floor (foam). I was shocked at how quickly she was recovering...but wait...now it's one week later and her knee (on the recovering leg) is hurting her. Why? Because she pushed herself too hard too fast and the muscles in that leg are not very strong yet. So the knee is not being protected the way it should be by strong muscles. Mentally, she thought she was ready. Her ankle/fracture area felt great. But she is learning now that the REST of her leg may not be ready and THAT's why the PT said not to do anything til her strength was 100%. So, IMO, if she continues to train before her leg is conditioned and re-strengthened properly, she will incur a knee injury. The point of this story being, we need to condition our athletes....weak muscles = injured ligaments.

If the one to double I saw posted on Facebook is any indication....I think she will be ready for Worlds, no worries. :cheering: