All-Star What Is This Rule Proposal About The Usasf Age Change

[luv2cheer92]

That would deter a lot of people from going to gyms with multiple locations. I don't have a problem with a gym with several satellite locations going to World's in the same division, but I would be upset if they were manipulating rosters and having select athletes compete at multiple gyms locations. Is that legal?

Yep, definitely legal right now, although it really shouldn't be. One very well known program has been known to do that before unfortunately.

 

[NerdMobile]

Not criticizing your program, but I feel that youth aged athletes on youth teams just should not be crossing over to senior teams. Out of curiosity, there weren't enough 14 and under athletes to make one of those senior teams a junior team?

We have always been fortunate with the exception of 1 season where cp was on a coed sr 3 at age 11 that she has been on teams with mostly her peers (they may be a year older or younger but that is where the bulk of them have fallen age wise). And the year she was on that senior team, it was awkward as 2 of the boys were 18.

There are not enough brand new to the sport senior girls (note only 2) to make another senior team. So, if they had the junior team as originally planned, the two senior aged girls have no placement. Instead they made it one team, and pulled a few of the youth girls up to fly. The level 4 team has 3 10 year olds and is ALSO senior as the other level 4 kids are older- and again they can make ONE team due to numbers. They try to cluster by skill. When you take out the seven 3 year olds on the tiny team you are talking about a program TOTAL of 50 athletes. The plan is for a half year team, if they get the numbers (all the half year girls last season became full year this season so who knows who may show for tryouts). If they had told the 2 girls to wait for half year and then could not field a team??? Believe it or not- this gym is bigger than where we came from and they had similar problems (in fact only being able to field 2 teams there drove a lot of people out of cheer completely).

 

[catlady]

Yep, definitely legal right now, although it really shouldn't be. One very well known program has been known to do that before unfortunately.

Well then, that's a rule I will say needs to be changed. I don't have a problem with a gym with several satellites having a team from each location in the same division IF each location is actually fielding their own team.

I agree! But the same rule should apply for the worlds and summit bids. Many of the bids go to the same gym just different teams within that gyms and it just isn't fair for the other teams that deserved a bid. But didn't get one because multiple teams from the same gym got it.

Many EP's have this rule. I believe it was at Battle Under the Big Top where two teams from the same gym should have won the paid bids, but because of this rule it was passed on to Top Gun. Top Gun didn't feel right taking the bid, so with the EP's permission, they gave it to the team that scored higher than them.

Again, I think what upsets people is not the fact that multiple teams from the same gym are getting bids if they deserve them. Meaning those teams are made up of different athletes. I think it is when a gym is crossing over a large talent pool to several teams at different levels that upsets people. In other words, I have no problem if gym "Y's" level 2 and level 5 Res. win paid Summit bids at the same event, if they are made up with different athletes. I do, however, take issue with those gyms that have the majority of the same roster on all their teams, different levels, taking multiple bids.

 

[Helen uk uni cheer]

I am more of the mindset of strength issues. It is annoying to see minis on youth teams flying.....how are those bases/backspots/flyers ever really learning to use their body control effectively. Sooooo many videos of people stunting with a baby that amazingly can be tight. cute, but, there is so much solidness under them....But give youth-aged kids the time to learn proper stunting tech with age/size-peers and they are developing proper tech, muscle strength, and stamina. Give micro-flyers to junior groups is not really developing them as fully as if they were working as precisely with an age/size-mate. Then get to seniors.....oh, we ABSOLUTELY need much smaller flyers to do that stunt :/ But fast-forward, watching flyers actually be moved back down to actual age groups in a new cheer season.....they really have to perfect their technique in flying - but - gasp - have to work just as hard at pulling up/staying tight/proper technique. Annnnnd, the stunt group has to gain that strength/stamina and GREAT technique to make the stunt work. My cp spent 4 years on youth, as her peers absolutely did 3. She had a full at 9. Didn't get to compete it until last year of youth. She didn't feel held back. Maybe just a little ahead in running tumbling for a small time, but really perfected that layout-stepout and her stunting. oh, and.....yes we had athletes on those teams that didn't have the required tumbling skills, but were absolute necessities for stunting/pyr/etc. They threw extra needed baskets while some dynamo tumbled again. Just my opinion, but I think absolute age values USASF wide would encourage creativity, strength, stamina and development. IMO, stunt groups need that time with age/size-mates. I know I'm in the minority, though

I was on a senior team last season and hopefully this season to and also on a open team. As a backspot and front I have flown a 26 year old who was average build, a 5ft9 flyer and a small 13 year old out of all of them I like flying the 26 year old as she was a challenge and made me more aware as a backspot and front. So I learnt the hard way and that has only made me stronger

 

[luv2cheer92]

I was on a senior team last season and hopefully this season to and also on a open team. As a backspot and front I have flown a 26 year old who was average build, a 5ft9 flyer and a small 13 year old out of all of them I like flying the 26 year old as she was a challenge and made me more aware as a backspot and front. So I learnt the hard way and that has only made me stronger

Exactly!
I feel like a lot of teams (definitely not all, or probably not even a majority) have a lot of 10/12 year old flyers, depending on the level, and once they get a little bit bigger they are no longer in the air and a new batch of 10/12 year old flyers come in. While yes, it is easier for 18 year olds to do harder stunts with the tiny 10-12 year olds, it's going to make it that much harder for them to transition to college cheer or open teams where the flyers are a lot closer to the same size as them. I'm usually on the side of the argument for tiny flyers, just because of that rare 90 lb 17 year old, and if they have the skills then they should be on that team. But, I'm starting to more often see tiny girls that are strictly on a higher level team to be that tiny flyer at younger and younger ages, and that I'm not ok with. As Debbie Love mentioned in the videos, cheerleaders should not be able to go from a mini team at 8, to a senior team at 10, they really do need that time to grow and mature as an athlete along with cheerleaders their own age.

Disclaimer: I'm not claiming to know the ages of every cheerleader in the country, but sometimes it is obvious just by looking at their body awareness in the air. Either that, or their coaches aren't doing their job.

 

[Helen uk uni cheer]

Exactly!
I feel like a lot of teams (definitely not all, or probably not even a majority) have a lot of 10/12 year old flyers, depending on the level, and once they get a little bit bigger they are no longer in the air and a new batch of 10/12 year old flyers come in. While yes, it is easier for 18 year olds to do harder stunts with the tiny 10-12 year olds, it's going to make it that much harder for them to transition to college cheer or open teams where the flyers are a lot closer to the same size as them. I'm usually on the side of the argument for tiny flyers, just because of that rare 90 lb 17 year old, and if they have the skills then they should be on that team. But, I'm starting to more often see tiny girls that are strictly on a higher level team to be that tiny flyer at younger and younger ages, and that I'm not ok with. As Debbie Love mentioned in the videos, cheerleaders should not be able to go from a mini team at 8, to a senior team at 10, they really do need that time to grow and mature as an athlete along with cheerleaders their own age.

Disclaimer: I'm not claiming to know the ages of every cheerleader in the country, but sometimes it is obvious just by looking at their body awareness in the air. Either that, or their coaches aren't doing their job.

I saw an example of using tiny flyers that really backfired on a particular team at nationals this year. This team orginally was going to be senior 5 but (i learnt of this on the uk cheer forum) due to an injury to one flyer they didnt have an old enough replacement so they went senior 4. When I saw them the night before comp that had decent size bases and their flyers were tiny. Lets just say that the routine was a train wreck and didnt place well atall.

I like using a smaller flyer for stuff like dual basing but for group stunt work aslong as the flyer has body awareness I will happily fly them. I feel im a better base and back from learning to fly older girls which now makes it easy when im asked to fly someone smaller

 

[FlexyTumblerMom]

I personally support rules that raise the minimum age on senior teams (at least for levels 4 and 5 - when you have those kind of skills, I think the "but were a just small gym trying to make it work w/ what we have" argument becomes less convincing) - I feel that it's a good thing for older girls to keep flying past puberty and for bases to learn to pick up kids that weigh more than 75 pounds. If the only girls flying are pre-pubescent 10-12 year olds, what kind of altheletes are we really developing? If no one but the girls who are extremely, extremely tiny know how to fly because they all got too big at 14, and no one knows how to base anyone heavier than 80 pounds, how are colleges going to be able to make stunting and competitive cheer teams? (assuming these kids being able to do this as a sport at the collegiate level is the ideal end goal for parents and the usasf).

Good bases can base someone close to their own weight and good flyers can hold themselves tight in the air even if they are bigger - when you are competing level 5 and trying to go to Worlds (the Olympics of our sport), you really shouldn't need your flyer to weigh 65 pounds to keep them in the air. That's just my opinion.

 

[SheCheers]

I personally support rules that raise the minimum age on senior teams (at least for levels 4 and 5 - when you have those kind of skills, I think the "but were a just small gym trying to make it work w/ what we have" argument becomes less convincing) - I feel that it's a good thing for older girls to keep flying past puberty and for bases to learn to pick up kids that weigh more than 75 pounds. If the only girls flying are pre-pubescent 10-12 year olds, what kind of altheletes are we really developing? If no one but the girls who are extremely, extremely tiny know how to fly because they all got too big at 14, and no one knows how to base anyone heavier than 80 pounds, how are colleges going to be able to make stunting and competitive cheer teams? (assuming these kids being able to do this as a sport at the collegiate level is the ideal end goal for parents and the usasf).

Good bases can base someone close to their own weight and good flyers can hold themselves tight in the air even if they are bigger - when you are competing level 5 and trying to go to Worlds (the Olympics of our sport), you really shouldn't need your flyer to weigh 65 pounds to keep them in the air. That's just my opinion.

Not all 12 year olds weigh 65lbs. And not all 13 year olds weigh more than 65lbs. If a child of any age has the skill, why should they be held back simply because they're small or young? By your account then any child under 80lbs should not fly senior. What if they're 14? Does that magically make it ok? FWIW, my 11 year old is over 80lbs and is flying on a junior team. By your standards she should weigh enough to be senior next year and still be able to fly. Oh wait, she'll only be 12.
The answer to how kids will learn is through coaching. Simple as that, forcing an age and size isn't going to magically make a kid know how to do something, they simply need to be taught.

 

[luv2cheer92]

I just don't think most 12 year olds (or even 13 year olds) are mature enough physically, mentally, or emotionally for a Senior 5 worlds team. Yes, there are some that are, but these rules are made to better the whole industry. I would feel bad to limit those few 12 year olds that are mature enough, but many many coaches will not take that into account when placing kids on teams and will put these young kids on the older teams before they are ready. If the age is restricted, yes it will prevent those awesome 12 year olds from going to worlds, but it will also prevent those coaches who are risking these young kids' safety and mindset by pushing them too far too early. I would like to see senior be 14+, but I doubt that would ever happen. However, it was mentioned in the videos about the possibility of bringing Juniors back to worlds in the future. I think this would take a lot of the pressure of coaches about parents wanting their child to go to worlds with a senior team before they are ready even though they are 12 and therefore "old enough".

 

[Helen uk uni cheer]

In all countries apart from the US you have to be at least 14 anyway to be on a worlds teams as the international division is 14+ so people have to wait anyway so why should it be any different for the US?

Also with the summit getting more prestigious every year it would be great for the junior 5's to have that as their chance to shine. Also I hope that international teams will get to get bids to the summit at some point as it would be great to compete with us teams

 

[luv2cheer92]

In all countries apart from the US you have to be at least 14 anyway to be on a worlds teams as the international division is 14+ so people have to wait anyway so why should it be any different for the US?

Also with the summit getting more prestigious every year it would be great for the junior 5's to have that as their chance to shine. Also I hope that international teams will get to get bids to the summit at some point as it would be great to compete with us teams

I know it's really not common at all in other countries, but international teams can enter the senior division where it is 12-18. There's usually around 5 total teams in the senior divisions each year, but it is an option.

 

[Helen uk uni cheer]

I know it's really not common at all in other countries, but international teams can enter the senior division where it is 12-18. There's usually around 5 total teams in the senior divisions each year, but it is an option.

It is an option but not a widely known one also EP's strongly encourage 15+ in the uk for seniors and as there is no age cap it is easier to go in the IO divisions as it easier fielding a team as alot but not all of tumbling tend to come from the older ones

 

[SheCheers]

I just don't think most 12 year olds (or even 13 year olds) are mature enough physically, mentally, or emotionally for a Senior 5 worlds team. Yes, there are some that are, but these rules are made to better the whole industry. I would feel bad to limit those few 12 year olds that are mature enough, but many many coaches will not take that into account when placing kids on teams and will put these young kids on the older teams before they are ready. If the age is restricted, yes it will prevent those awesome 12 year olds from going to worlds, but it will also prevent those coaches who are risking these young kids' safety and mindset by pushing them too far too early. I would like to see senior be 14+, but I doubt that would ever happen. However, it was mentioned in the videos about the possibility of bringing Juniors back to worlds in the future. I think this would take a lot of the pressure of coaches about parents wanting their child to go to worlds with a senior team before they are ready even though they are 12 and therefore "old enough".

But is the pressure because of the senior team or because it's worlds? Is the maturity needed for the senior team or for worlds? Would they need a bottom age for juniors, too?
Is there evidence that a year makes a difference physically and mentally or is it just a feeling people have?
Age is so very arbitrary these days. I know many teens much more mature than young adults. And it's true that not all coaches place kids based on ability to handle physical and mental pressure, however those kids have parents who are allowing it as well. It just seems to me that people aren't really all that worried about these young kids more than they're stomping their feet and saying "not fair, I want to be a flyer, too! But they're smaller than me!"
There are much much bigger issues in all star right now than age. If we really wanted to protect young children there would be required background checks on everyone working with the kids. There wouldn't be a convicted sex offender running a gym. There would be required safety certifications for all coaches, etc. That would protect every athlete. Not just those poor 12 year olds.

 

[luv2cheer92]

But is the pressure because of the senior team or because it's worlds? Is the maturity needed for the senior team or for worlds? Would they need a bottom age for juniors, too?
Is there evidence that a year makes a difference physically and mentally or is it just a feeling people have?
Age is so very arbitrary these days. I know many teens much more mature than young adults. And it's true that not all coaches place kids based on ability to handle physical and mental pressure, however those kids have parents who are allowing it as well. It just seems to me that people aren't really all that worried about these young kids more than they're stomping their feet and saying "not fair, I want to be a flyer, too! But they're smaller than me!"
There are much much bigger issues in all star right now than age. If we really wanted to protect young children there would be required background checks on everyone working with the kids. There wouldn't be a convicted sex offender running a gym. There would be required safety certifications for all coaches, etc. That would protect every athlete. Not just those poor 12 year olds.

This, this, and this!!
But to answer your first question I would say both. In my experience, there were higher expectations on the senior teams compared to the junior teams, and the younger athletes that I knew felt under pressure to keep up with the older kids. I don't know if one year would make a difference, but from what I have learned, a couple years would. My ideal world would be for juniors to return to worlds and be 11-14 and seniors be 15-18. I will keep dreaming though.
To be completely honest, if I were a gym owner who had to vote on this, I would have no idea which way I would vote, just trying to write out my thoughts and I would be completely open to changing my mind.

 

[kristenthegreat]

Listening in, I have a strong feeling it will bump to 13 for this year. I do hope JR5 goes through, and while part of me wants Juniors at worlds, part of me is like 'That PLUS maybe IOSM5??! WHERE IS THERE ROOM!?!?'