All-Star What Is This Rule Proposal About The Usasf Age Change

[cheerisloving]

If they do this then there needs to be a minimum age at very level IMO otherwise gyms will keep putting 8-9 yo on the junior team sand the issue is just pushed down an age level. When my CP was 8, she was on a Junior team and the conversations were worse than when she was 10 on a Senior team last year. 12-14 year olds tend to have less of a filter on their conversations than 15-18 year olds. The 12-14 year olds conversations would make a sailor blush. The 15-18 year olds treated my 10 yo like a little sister.

I think the 9 v. 14 age dynamic is worse, than the 10 v. 18 level. Essentially, 9 year olds and 13 year olds are only four years apart, but a 9 year old is going to school in a different environment than a 14 year old who could be a HS freshman or 8th grader. So 14 year olds are 'exposed' to more adult things, but developmentally can be immature.

I caught up with the rest of the discussion, and want to add, that I think it can be helpful as younger athletes, who excel are often pushed to crossover on a senior team and a jr, yth ect. This can limit that, which is great because it's absolutely terrible that kids are dog tired when they have to do a Yth 3 routine and L5R routine right after.

 

[FlexyTumblerMom]

These arguments about age, maturity, skill, etc. required for the top level of competion are highly debated in gymnastics as well - remember the age controversies surrouding the Chinese team that won gold the Sean Johnson Olympic year? and how many would argue "so what if they were below the cut off, if they were the best, they deserved to win anyway".

I also think in cheerleading where you are talking about a flyer it is important to put controls in regarding age to protect the athlete, it's the same concept as gymnastics cause of the risk involved at the high levels of the sport - younger kids just don't have as much fear, and because of their small size, lack of hips, body fat, etc., are able to just do more, but it is kind of reckless to push them so fast to the top skills. Think of that video of the 3 year old flyer on Vine - I bet a senior 5 team would be able to do ridiculous stunts with her, but is that safe/ethical? I don't think so - as much as she may love to get a tiny little worlds ring . Plus it does kind of lead to a situation where the once tiny athlete grows up and is now a has been at 14 because they can't do what they once could because they have hips.

Re: the poster who said my point above was flawed because some 14 year olds do weigh less than some 10 year olds, etc. - I see your point. I guess I'm thinking in generalities - its very rare to see a girl who's gone through puberty who weighs less than 80 pounds IMO, in that case though, its a no brainer that if the flexibility and skills are there of course you'd have that person be a flyer.

 

[JuniorFusionFire]

Listening in, I have a strong feeling it will bump to 13 for this year. I do hope JR5 goes through, and while part of me wants Juniors at worlds, part of me is like 'That PLUS maybe IOSM5??! WHERE IS THERE ROOM!?!?'

Based On what I've heard On the livecast, the JR5 idea sounds good, but I wonder if gyms will skip from Y3/J3 To JR5, since athletes could still throw layouts and focus On working On a single full (instead of rushing To the double full). And that makes me worry about the legacy of Youth/Junior 4. I'm not sure how popular they are (if someone could feed me On this, that'd mean a lot), but it seems as if people would favor JR5 for smoother progression onto a true L5 and forgoing L4 altogether. Just a thought.

 

[quitthedrama]

These arguments about age, maturity, skill, etc. required for the top level of competion are highly debated in gymnastics as well - remember the age controversies surrounding the Chinese team that won gold the Sean Johnson Olympic year? and how many would argue "so what if they were below the cut off, if they were the best, they deserved to win anyway".

Just to clarify, that controversy was about the Chinese team cheating and putting athletes younger than 16 on the team. It had nothing to do with whether the athletes were developmentally too young or whether they were the best.

 

[FlexyTumblerMom]

Just to clarify, that controversy was about the Chinese team cheating and putting athletes younger than 16 on the team. It had nothing to do with whether the athletes were developmentally too young or whether they were the best.

Many people were saying the rule that they HAD to be 16 in the first place was stupid - commentators, journalists, etc. I'm just bringing up the point that it is something that is debated in sports where young age and small size is an advantage.

 

[HeyMom]

Even had a hard time the last two seasons when my CP was 9 and 10 on Junior aged teams with 8th and 9th graders, because there wasn't a level appropriate team in the youth bracket. There's a big difference between a 14 year old and a grade schooler.

Going through this right now. Older kids talk about a lot of things that offer me some interesting "teachable moments" for my 9 year old CP Fortunately, there haven't been any things that may be considered "inappropriate" but we have talked about age appropriate dating, making out, and cannibalism on the way home from practice. (I think the cannibalism conversation was really about a movie although CP thought it was about someone one of the girls knew.)

 

[SheCheers]

These arguments about age, maturity, skill, etc. required for the top level of competion are highly debated in gymnastics as well - remember the age controversies surrouding the Chinese team that won gold the Sean Johnson Olympic year? and how many would argue "so what if they were below the cut off, if they were the best, they deserved to win anyway".

I also think in cheerleading where you are talking about a flyer it is important to put controls in regarding age to protect the athlete, it's the same concept as gymnastics cause of the risk involved at the high levels of the sport - younger kids just don't have as much fear, and because of their small size, lack of hips, body fat, etc., are able to just do more, but it is kind of reckless to push them so fast to the top skills. Think of that video of the 3 year old flyer on Vine - I bet a senior 5 team would be able to do ridiculous stunts with her, but is that safe/ethical? I don't think so - as much as she may love to get a tiny little worlds ring . Plus it does kind of lead to a situation where the once tiny athlete grows up and is now a has been at 14 because they can't do what they once could because they have hips.

Re: the poster who said my point above was flawed because some 14 year olds do weigh less than some 10 year olds, etc. - I see your point. I guess I'm thinking in generalities - its very rare to see a girl who's gone through puberty who weighs less than 80 pounds IMO, in that case though, its a no brainer that if the flexibility and skills are there of course you'd have that person be a flyer.

I don't know any 3 year olds with all around level 5 skills. that's the point I'm getting at with skill-based decisions. If we assume every worlds flyer is 12...that's approximately 25% of all worlds athletes. But we know not all worlds flyers are 12...so we are talking about fewer than 1/4 of the athletes we are supposedly "protecting".

It makes me uncomfortable to see large people flipping young people around. A 3 year old going head first towards concrete IS unsafe. A 50lb 10 year old being flipped by senior athletes isn't. I'm pretty sure the 3 year old can't do a full either. I know the difference between my own mental discomfort with something and safety for the person doing it. So, do I dislike seeing both of the above things? Yes. But one is dangerous and one is my own personal issue that I'll own. I don't like seeing grown woman in crop tops either, but I'm not trying to make rules against it

If people are really concerned with the health and long term stress on a young athletes body, why aren't they saying no one aged 12 or under can cross compete? No one under 12 can take more than one tumbling class or private a week? No one under 12 can train for more than 6 hours a week?

 

[12stepCheermom]

If people are really concerned with the health and long term stress on a young athletes body, why aren't they saying no one aged 12 or under can cross compete? No one under 12 can take more than one tumbling class or private a week? No one under 12 can train for more than 6 hours a week?

THIS.

I've taken some time to think about this and here's my issue. The only thing accomplished by creating a generalized rule is to continue to ignore what the issue ACTUALLY is. It's not about 12 year olds on senior teams at all. It's about a lack of properly trained coaches that think it's okay to put a 12 y/o who isn't ready on a worlds team. It's about coaches and programs that don't look at children before cheerleaders and set ground rules for how 18 year olds and 12 year olds should interact and monitor that. It's about crazy Susie moms that demand their unready 12 year old with a jank tuck go to worlds because they're 12 and no one having the people skills, training or wherewithal to say "no."

Instead, let's just make a blanket rule to force all coaches and programs to do what they should be doing (with exceptions) anyway because some of them aren't. Then you can avoid having the REAL discussion about properly training coaches and credentialing athletes and say you fixed the issue. When in fact all you did was tie the hands of the ones doing it right and the kids who actually do have the skill in deference to addressing the lousy people who have (in effect) ruined it for everyone.

/endrant

 

[dawgshow]

THIS.

I've taken some time to think about this and here's my issue. The only thing accomplished by creating a generalized rule is to continue to ignore what the issue ACTUALLY is. It's not about 12 year olds on senior teams at all. It's about a lack of properly trained coaches that think it's okay to put a 12 y/o who isn't ready on a worlds team. It's about coaches and programs that don't look at children before cheerleaders and set ground rules for how 18 year olds and 12 year olds should interact and monitor that. It's about crazy Susie moms that demand their unready 12 year old with a jank tuck go to worlds because they're 12 and no one having the people skills, training or wherewithal to say "no."

Instead, let's just make a blanket rule to force all coaches and programs to do what they should be doing (with exceptions) anyway because some of them aren't. Then you can avoid having the REAL discussion about properly training coaches and credentialing athletes and say you fixed the issue. When in fact all you did was tie the hands of the ones doing it right and the kids who actually do have the skill in deference to addressing the lousy people who have (in effect) ruined it for everyone.

/endrant

You mean like the uniform rule :wasntme:

 

[12stepCheermom]

You mean like the uniform rule :wasntme:

Exactly.

Whoever makes these rules needs to read "Shifting the Monkey" by Todd Whitaker and stop punishing the good people because they don't have the spine to address the ones that need to be addressed. They're like that boss that sends mass emails demanding everyone show up to work on time rather than addressing the three people individually that are always late.

 

[icame2WERQ]

I get what some of you are saying if the child has the skills and physical and mental maturity, but why the rush for your child to be on a senior worlds team. Why is it not enough for your 12 year old to be on a Junior 5 or competitive Junior 4 team?

#bringbackourJuniordivisions

 

[dawgshow]

Exactly.

Whoever makes these rules needs to read "Shifting the Monkey" by Todd Whitaker and stop punishing the good people because they don't have the spine to address the ones that need to be addressed. They're like that boss that sends mass emails demanding everyone show up to work on time rather than addressing the three people individually that are always late.

See, I'm a fan of letting the masses try to make the right decisions. Once they fail to do so, though, I'm also a fan of forcing the situation.
This is just a scenario that we will not see eye to eye on.

 

[12stepCheermom]

See, I'm a fan of letting the masses try to make the right decisions. Once they fail to do so, though, I'm also a fan of forcing the situation.
This is just a scenario that we will not see eye to eye on.

Not necessarily. I'm not against forcing a general decision if your individual efforts have failed. I just don't see this as the problem, I see it as a symptom of a larger one that no one is addressing.

Address coaches training and athlete credentialing (where I really think the issue is) and this 12 year old senior team thing becomes a non-issue.

 

[kristenthegreat]

Based On what I've heard On the livecast, the JR5 idea sounds good, but I wonder if gyms will skip from Y3/J3 To JR5, since athletes could still throw layouts and focus On working On a single full (instead of rushing To the double full). And that makes me worry about the legacy of Youth/Junior 4. I'm not sure how popular they are (if someone could feed me On this, that'd mean a lot), but it seems as if people would favor JR5 for smoother progression onto a true L5 and forgoing L4 altogether. Just a thought.

Some of the people who were in favor of it HAVE youth 5 and senior 5 teams (one of them was from ECE), I think because then they can take their older seniors who aren't quite ready for 5 with some of their more talented youth without having to field a youth 5 which has maybe 5 teams a YEAR. Youth 4 isn't super crazy large either. I think we're FINALLY getting to a place where we start settling into sizes that work. Junior divisions have shrunk- I think Junior R5 will help bring them back and keep things more age appropriate.

 

[12stepCheermom]

I get what some of you are saying if the child has the skills and physical and mental maturity, but why the rush for your child to be on a senior worlds team. Why is it not enough for your 12 year old to be on a Junior 5 or competitive Junior 4 team?

#bringbackourJuniordivisions

What if you can't field a J5? A 12 year old with a standing full and Arabian through to double (they do exist in small numbers) would be bored on a j4 and maybe even regress unless parents are paying for extra privates on the side.

To me it's about a kid being on their appropriate level, not about their chronological age. The issue (in my mind) is about credentialing athletes.