All-Star Number Of Crossovers/stacking Teams

[redsmom]

My daughter is 15 and is on J4. She turned 15 in November. A lot of girls on her team are 14 turning 15 and are freshman just like her. At our gym most of our 8yr olds are on Mini or Youth teams depending on birthdays. We don't have too many 8yr old on Junior teams (Correct me if I'm wrong King). I thought it was perfectly normal to be 14/15 on a Jr team since that is what the age bracket is. :-/

If a Junior team was all 8/9/10 wouldn't that be a youth team?

I think, at least for level 5, to be competitive at the junior level nationally you need to have "true" junior age kids as the majority of your team (e.g. 12-14 yr olds). Given the current age brackets, I would consider 9- 11 year olds to be "true" youth age, 12-14 year olds to be "true" junior athletes, and 15-18 year olds to be "true" senior athletes. I think the lower bottom limits (& younger for most divisions) allows gyms some flexibility to build their teams to best suit their needs.

 

[cheermommaRN]

Kris10boo The only question I have is why would they cross your very Level 2 daughter down to a mini 1 team if the team is already that large? I could understand if it was a small mini and they needed numbers. Her age isn't that unheard of on a youth team. Or if she was on a junior 2, then I could see the age being an issue.
I'm not that against crossovers except when it's obvious that half your team is competing 3 times in one day. And honestly I don't even care from a "fairness" standpoint, I am more concerned about kids burning out because they are practicing 7 days a week and competing 3 times in one day. But you all know me...I'm the "save a knee, save a cheerleader" mom.
What I am very against and will yell it from the mountaintop is whole teams dropping down divisions to win at a Nationals. Here's a hint, if your gym has a website you probably don't want to do this because other gyms will figure it out...or at least don't list your teams and their divisions. I have seen it every year and I always wonder how the gym owners sold the parents on the idea.

 

[TheVipersMom]

Kris10boo The only question I have is why would they cross your very Level 2 daughter down to a mini 1 team if the team is already that large? I could understand if it was a small mini and they needed numbers. Her age isn't that unheard of on a youth team. Or if she was on a junior 2, then I could see the age being an issue.
I'm not that against crossovers except when it's obvious that half your team is competing 3 times in one day. And honestly I don't even care from a "fairness" standpoint, I am more concerned about kids burning out because they are practicing 7 days a week and competing 3 times in one day. But you all know me...I'm the "save a knee, save a cheerleader" mom.
What I am very against and will yell it from the mountaintop is whole teams dropping down divisions to win at a Nationals. Here's a hint, if your gym has a website you probably don't want to do this because other gyms will figure it out...or at least don't list your teams and their divisions. I have seen it every year and I always wonder how the gym owners sold the parents on the idea.

Well I understand where you are coming from but my cp is the youngest on youth. I know cheer isn't about being with your friends but out of all the tiny kids on her team last year not one of them bumped up to youth so she knew nobody. Even with our mini team being very large we actually had a lot of new kids. I have no clue why the mini age group had a huge spike to where the youth jr and Sr teams dropped in numbers compared to last year. Another thing I will say is we honestly don't go to that many competitions... Like very little. Our mini team goes to 3 local competitions that are 1 day competitions out of Nashville. Our youth team goes to 1 Nashville competition that the mini's go to and then a competition in louisville and sevierville that are 2day competitions. So she only has 1 one day competition at the same time where she competed twice. As far as practice wise Monday is youth, Tuesday is mini's, and Thursday she has both. So if she quit 1 team it would only save her 1 day of practice.

Yes my daughter fly's on youth but she doesn't really get to shine on that team. She has a good tumble pass in running tumbling but besides that you won't find her in the front of jumps or dance (she doesn't deserve to be) but she is ok with that and loves that team.

On mini's she has an opening that is centered around her and a good tumble pass and lots of other things that she loves. She also gets to base and I think it helps keep her well rounded as far as cheer. Yes my daughter is little compared to her youth team but she is extremely tall and it could very well be her only chances at flying so she needs to learn to do both. The owner told her day 1 that if she ever wants to quit 1 team to let her know because she doesnt want her to get burnt out but honestly I knew she loved it last year but this year she became obsessed with it.

When the mini's started out of like 26/27 only half of them had back walkovers. Now all but 3 have them so they came a long way. Besides the now 4 kids we have crossover from mini's to youth we maybe only have 1 or 2 throughout all our other teams. The youth struggled the most this year with numbers and quitters.
To address the other thing you mentioned we don't go to any big competitions haha so we really don't have to drop down levels. I however would be very concerned for teams doing this unless a serious change happened in their team to where they could not perform as a team safely at their level that would require them to drop down. Besides that it is uncalled for. Our gym does have a website and the teams and rosters with names are listed publicly last I checked. As far as the youth team goes I'd bet probably 100$ that the roster on there doesn't even have over half those kids thats listed on that team now.

 

[cheerheart4life]

In my opinion, if you are mini or youth age there is NO reason to be on a senior team. I hate seeing little eight year olds flying in a senior team getting based my seventeen year olds. That's ridiculous!!

 

[worldchampME]

THE FOLLOWING IS IN MY OPINION...so relax

I HATE crossovers, especially when you see that some of these teams that have the "NOTICEABLE" level 5 athletes on their level 4s, could be just as good or competitive without them, IF THEIR COACHES worked a bit harder in TRAINING (key word) their athletes. But instead, these big programs with a surplus of athletes, stack their lower levels just so they don't lose. It's frustrating because my gym uses them for correct reasons (mainly injuries) which I mean, not everyone will see eye to eye, but I personally think that if I were a judge, i'd be disappointed in seeing the same athletes on a coed 4 as on a worlds coed 5. frustrating...

 

[Cheer_Explosion_Coach]

I would have to disagree that crossovers are hurting small gyms. Our small gym has 4 competition teams, mini lvl 1, youth lvl 2, sr coed lvl 3 and sr lvl 4. Each team has 20 athletes. There is no way that we would be able to have 4 full teams without crossovers due to the 75 athlete limit for small gyms. We can only take 3 out of the 4 teams to NCA due to their crossover restriction, which in my opinion should be removed for small gyms. Unfortunately, it happens to be our youth 2 team that took high point at ACA and had the 3rd highest score (by less than 1 point) from close to 60 (both large and small gyms) level 2 teams.

Can I ask how are the extra fees and costs paid for? If the gym is eating the cost then yes it is taking away from the gyms bottom line. The added expense will come with an opportunity cost like smaller marketing, coaches training, new equipment, or payroll budget. Money is finite and what you spend on one thing you cannot spend on others. If the gym can get their customers to fund the crossovers completely, then you are right their crossovers are not hurting their gym.

It has been my experience that when small gyms "need" that crossover, they tend to come out of pocket for him/her.

 

[SheCheers]

I agree that smaller teams with less then 20 athletes can be just as competitive, however we have athletes from our level 2 team that are are on our mini team as well as our Senior 3 and Senior 4 teams. If we didn't have crossovers then our level 2 team would only have 10 athletes. In my opinion, a team that small just isn't as competitive as teams with 16 - 20 athletes. As it stands, our level 2 team is phenomenal and it's a shame that NCA doesn't allow crossovers for small gyms.

Here, i'm assuming what you mean is that some minis cross up to level 2 and some srs cross down since the level 2 team is the one you're not bringing to NCA? i think many would consider that team to be stacked, which is probably why they do so well. i don't care either way about crossovers honestly, it's going to happen, but to say that it's "hurting" your gym, i would respectfully disagree. i think gyms do it maybe one or two ways: either making the teams from the athletes or making a team and then sticking athletes on it...kwim? I think in your scenario a small gym that has to turn people away, just wouldn't have formed a level 2 team. they might have put those 10 level 2 athletes with the minis and made a lg youth 1. or maybe stuck a few on 3 if they were close to tucks or having strong level 3 skills in other areas.

Our gym has maybe 100 athletes and we have 5 teams. we have ONE crossover. we're taking all our teams to NCA because we have a fill in. we also do really well, even at large competitions against large/mega gyms (with the exception of our level 5 since, this is only the 2nd year of having a level 5 team).

 

[gymcatmomx2]

THIS is something that I think needs to be fixed. Why oh why are there athletes competing on a MINI team and a SENIOR team? I am sorry but there is no reason someone who is in the age range for a mini team should also be on a team with senior age athletes. Heck they don't want high schools on teams with 26 and 27 year olds but it is ok for a mini athlete to be on a team with an 18 year old?

Sorry that sort of took the thread in a different direction but that right there seriously made me look like this

No, no, no... there are Minis that are on our Youth team and we have Youth girls that are on our Senior teams. One of the girls that is on our Youth team and our Senior team is my CP who turned 12 last month. She is the oldest on the Youth team. All of the girls that are on our Youth that crossover to our Seniors are in 6th grade. Sorry if I didn't explain myself well.

 

[gymcatmomx2]

Here, i'm assuming what you mean is that some minis cross up to level 2 and some srs cross down since the level 2 team is the one you're not bringing to NCA? i think many would consider that team to be stacked, which is probably why they do so well. i don't care either way about crossovers honestly, it's going to happen, but to say that it's "hurting" your gym, i would respectfully disagree. i think gyms do it maybe one or two ways: either making the teams from the athletes or making a team and then sticking athletes on it...kwim? I think in your scenario a small gym that has to turn people away, just wouldn't have formed a level 2 team. they might have put those 10 level 2 athletes with the minis and made a lg youth 1. or maybe stuck a few on 3 if they were close to tucks or having strong level 3 skills in other areas.

Our gym has maybe 100 athletes and we have 5 teams. we have ONE crossover. we're taking all our teams to NCA because we have a fill in. we also do really well, even at large competitions against large/mega gyms (with the exception of our level 5 since, this is only the 2nd year of having a level 5 team).

Yes you are correct in that we have a few minis cross up to our Youth 2 team but we don't have Seniors crossing down to our Youth 2. We have Youth 2 girls (12 year olds) cross up to our Senior teams. They all have level 3 skills and 2 of them are flyers on our Senior 4 team and have level 4 skills that they just mastered this season. Youth 2 isn't stacked. The ages range from 8 to 12... which is completely acceptible. That's wonderful that you have a successful gym with 100 athletes. Here in the Dallas/Fort Worth area it would be difficult to compete as a "small" large gym. And as a parent with 2 CPs, with the oldest being 14, I prefer the small gym atmosphere.

 

[WCMAN]

Yes you are correct in that we have a few minis cross up to our Youth 2 team but we don't have Seniors crossing down to our Youth 2. We have Youth 2 girls (12 year olds) cross up to our Senior teams. They all have level 3 skills and 2 of them are flyers on our Senior 4 team and have level 4 skills that they just mastered this season. Youth 2 isn't stacked. The ages range from 8 to 12... which is completely acceptible. That's wonderful that you have a successful gym with 100 athletes. Here in the Dallas/Fort Worth area it would be difficult to compete as a "small" large gym. And as a parent with 2 CPs, with the oldest being 14, I prefer the small gym atmosphere.

I know its tuff in a small gym but I think your missing the point. You admit that 2 girls have level 3 skills and 2 have level 4 skills on your youth2.Then they should not be on your youth 2.Do you think its fare to the youth2 teams that all the girls have level2 skills.It is a huge advantage. At WC we have a youth5 if they went and competed in youth2 division don't you think its a clear advantage.

 

[gymcatmomx2]

I know its tuff in a small gym but I think your missing the point. You admit that 2 girls have level 3 skills and 2 have level 4 skills on your youth2.Then they should not be on your youth 2.Do you think its fare to the youth2 teams that all the girls have level2 skills.It is a huge advantage. At WC we have a youth5 if they went and competed in youth2 division don't you think its a clear advantage.

I guess if you put it in that light, I would have to agree. I think the reason that the gym owner created a level 2 team is to give the younger girls who have level 2 skills the opportunity to use them. I think I opened up a can of worms with this discussion My intent on my original post was to say that I thought that NCA Nationals should do away with the crossover restrictions for small gyms since they are the only EP that has it - at least that I am aware of. Next season this will be a moot point since these girls will have aged out of the Youth division.

 

[WCMAN]

I guess if you put it in that light, I would have to agree. I think the reason that the gym owner created a level 2 team is to give the younger girls who have level 2 skills the opportunity to use them. I think I opened up a can of worms with this discussion My intent on my original post was to say that I thought that NCA Nationals should do away with the crossover restrictions for small gyms since they are the only EP that has it - at least that I am aware of. Next season this will be a moot point since these girls will have aged out of the Youth division.

Your hearts in the right place but other gyms even some of the big ones would use their level5's to take advantage of the rules. Its sad what people will do for a jacket..LOL.

 

[redsmom]

I guess if you put it in that light, I would have to agree. I think the reason that the gym owner created a level 2 team is to give the younger girls who have level 2 skills the opportunity to use them. I think I opened up a can of worms with this discussion My intent on my original post was to say that I thought that NCA Nationals should do away with the crossover restrictions for small gyms since they are the only EP that has it - at least that I am aware of. Next season this will be a moot point since these girls will have aged out of the Youth division.

Don't worry this particular can of worms has been open for a while! Its good discussion, and your gym is well within the rules (good or bad) having those kids on the teams they are on.

I am curious, other then NCA nationals and Worlds, are there other comps/EPs that restrict crossovers beyond the USASF rules?

 

[cupieqt]

Can I ask how are the extra fees and costs paid for? If the gym is eating the cost then yes it is taking away from the gyms bottom line. The added expense will come with an opportunity cost like smaller marketing, coaches training, new equipment, or payroll budget. Money is finite and what you spend on one thing you cannot spend on others. If the gym can get their customers to fund the crossovers completely, then you are right their crossovers are not hurting their gym.

It has been my experience that when small gyms "need" that crossover, they tend to come out of pocket for him/her.

We require our "permanent" crossovers to pay their extra fees. If we ask someone to fill in for an injury they do not come out of pocket only bc it's already been paid by the injured athlete.

 

[TheVipersMom]

We require our "permanent" crossovers to pay their extra fees. If we ask someone to fill in for an injury they do not come out of pocket only bc it's already been paid by the injured athlete.

Same with us... I paid all extra fees for her to cross over .. It's definitely hitting me hard on the pockets! Lol