High School Hs Higher Stunting Difficulty

[OldskoolKYcheercoach]

I've cringed a lot more these past couple of seasons watching these terrifying braced pyramid inversions, clumsy paper dolls, and deadly kick full downs than I ever have while watching teams doubling down ijs.

Anything not performed well can be cringe-worthy. What you're not taking into account is the actual level of risk involved.

Let's say we are doing a cringe-worthy braced inversion, the kind where the top is in a plank position, slightly inverted, with bases hands on her shoulders/hips (the modified collegiate hand-to-hand). Even if the team has no business doing the skill, before the bases are able to get air on this stunt, one of two things has to be true: the top has to be core-tight enough to maintain the body position, or small enough that they can throw her anyway. Then the momentum is traveling upward, where the bracer can help lift, and/or help lower if things aren't right. then she's bringing her feet down so that they're traveling towards the ground where they belong, she's typically not twisting (and if she is, it's not a rapid spin like a double down), and she should be traveling straight down in the middle of three people waiting to catch her.

Now, let's imagine we are doing a cringe-worthy double down. The person at risk is no longer the top person. It's the three people at the bottom. So the kid gets a full down, and even if she's learned it correctly (which is pretty rare these days), she now feels she has to pull twice as hard, she starts cranking on this thing and the harder she goes at it, the worse it gets. Her elbows are exposed (I actually worked at an all star gym where tops were taught to pull their hands to their inside shoulder with arms bent), her legs are flying apart, her hips are no longer in cylinder because she's doing everything she can to get around, including "the worm." At this point you have four people at risk: the top who has likely dove herself head first, the back who is exposed to the tops diving forehead, and both bases who are likely to catch elbows and knees.

Double downs are single-handedly responsible for keeping concussion and late-night dental clinics in business.

 

[Official OWECheer]

I don't know about your area, but the janky tumbling I find in high school around here is a direct result of middle school coaches jumping up and down when a kid flops herself over into a triangle position on a backhandspring for the first time, and saying "awesome, now go try your tuck" in the same breath.

YES lol. I feel like there should be more focus on working every middle schooler up to a solid power hurdle RO rebound (at least), and then working up from there but ROs are often treated as an annoying thing to be glossed over on the way to BHS country. On my middle school team, if you couldn't tumble you just threw a roundoff during running tumbling. No care for form. I didn't even know that ROs were supposed to be done a certain way until I started researching.

Not going to say where I live, but kids in my area often get th.eir tumbling from all-star or Pop Warner cheer (there is at least one serious program around here)

 

[Official OWECheer]

Anything not performed well can be cringe-worthy. What you're not taking into account is the actual level of risk involved.

Let's say we are doing a cringe-worthy braced inversion, the kind where the top is in a plank position, slightly inverted, with bases hands on her shoulders/hips (the modified collegiate hand-to-hand). Even if the team has no business doing the skill, before the bases are able to get air on this stunt, one of two things has to be true: the top has to be core-tight enough to maintain the body position, or small enough that they can throw her anyway. Then the momentum is traveling upward, where the bracer can help lift, and/or help lower if things aren't right. then she's bringing her feet down so that they're traveling towards the ground where they belong, she's typically not twisting (and if she is, it's not a rapid spin like a double down), and she should be traveling straight down in the middle of three people waiting to catch her.

Now, let's imagine we are doing a cringe-worthy double down. The person at risk is no longer the top person. It's the three people at the bottom. So the kid gets a full down, and even if she's learned it correctly (which is pretty rare these days), she now feels she has to pull twice as hard, she starts cranking on this thing and the harder she goes at it, the worse it gets. Her elbows are exposed (I actually worked at an all star gym where tops were taught to pull their hands to their inside shoulder with arms bent), her legs are flying apart, her hips are no longer in cylinder because she's doing everything she can to get around, including "the worm." At this point you have four people at risk: the top who has likely dove herself head first, the back who is exposed to the tops diving forehead, and both bases who are likely to catch elbows and knees.

Double downs are single-handedly responsible for keeping concussion and late-night dental clinics in business.

And now I'm reminded of WCSS at NCA 1999 when Blair accidentally knocked Andrea's teeth out during a double down...

 

[OldskoolKYcheercoach]

And now I'm reminded of WCSS at NCA 1999 when Blair accidentally knocked Andrea's teeth out during a double down...

Maybe it's because of the area where I grew up (a highly competitive school cheer environment with no all star gyms), but I feel strongly that the explosion of the all star cheer industry is largely responsible for many of the safety issues and technique flaws we find in cheer today. In the mid-90's, all stars were doing skills that high school kids shouldn't do. Then they really exploded with all star competitions and for many years there was no consistency among all star competition with regard to rules. I remember going to WCA nationals one year to watch and high school kids were doing tuck, full, and double full baskets (yea, the flipping kind), and just dive-bombing into their bases. Then I went to an all star gym that had just opened in my home town. The coaches were teaching these skills with their own version of crappy technique in a "maybe this will make it better" fashion. Then I contracted with a couple of gyms to do some stunting clinics, and their were parents owning these gyms....OMG...one mom her her 75 pound daughter flying on two 50 pound bases, with a 7'4" 13 year old back spot (I don't know who this poor kid's high school volleyball coach is, but I was heavily pushing her in that direction during the whole clinic. She was too pretty to get her face beaten in by this horrible flyer).

I think the USASF has improved the environment for everyone involved, but we are still in the recovery phase.

 

[cheer25mom]

I don't know about your area, but the janky tumbling I find in high school around here is a direct result of middle school coaches jumping up and down when a kid flops herself over into a triangle position on a backhandspring for the first time, and saying "awesome, now go try your tuck" in the same breath.

This is a HUGE issue in my area. First year CP was cheering was the first time I was exposed to school cheer competition. There were teams where I held my breath every time someone attempted a tuck with their head 2 inches off the mat.

 

[FamousxMindset]

Anything not performed well can be cringe-worthy. What you're not taking into account is the actual level of risk involved.

Let's say we are doing a cringe-worthy braced inversion, the kind where the top is in a plank position, slightly inverted, with bases hands on her shoulders/hips (the modified collegiate hand-to-hand). Even if the team has no business doing the skill, before the bases are able to get air on this stunt, one of two things has to be true: the top has to be core-tight enough to maintain the body position, or small enough that they can throw her anyway. Then the momentum is traveling upward, where the bracer can help lift, and/or help lower if things aren't right. then she's bringing her feet down so that they're traveling towards the ground where they belong, she's typically not twisting (and if she is, it's not a rapid spin like a double down), and she should be traveling straight down in the middle of three people waiting to catch her.

Now, let's imagine we are doing a cringe-worthy double down. The person at risk is no longer the top person. It's the three people at the bottom. So the kid gets a full down, and even if she's learned it correctly (which is pretty rare these days), she now feels she has to pull twice as hard, she starts cranking on this thing and the harder she goes at it, the worse it gets. Her elbows are exposed (I actually worked at an all star gym where tops were taught to pull their hands to their inside shoulder with arms bent), her legs are flying apart, her hips are no longer in cylinder because she's doing everything she can to get around, including "the worm." At this point you have four people at risk: the top who has likely dove herself head first, the back who is exposed to the tops diving forehead, and both bases who are likely to catch elbows and knees.

Double downs are single-handedly responsible for keeping concussion and late-night dental clinics in business.

Obviously we aren't going to agree on the matter, and that perfectly fine with me lol.

In my state it was extremely rare to see double twisting skills period because many of the 'coaches' were unable to teach a proper full down like you've mentioned so spinning twice was never an option unless you had an allstar flyer join the team who already had the skill. Spinning skills require some shred of core strength, and technique for all parties involved even the most inexperienced cheer coach will pick up on that. However all of the amazing inversions from top notch schools like Greenup don't LOOK nearly as intricate as a double down so eventually these 'coaches' are going to have their girls try and eventually some little girl is going to take a fall she might not just get back up from.

I feel like my point is getting kind of hazy so I'll reiterate. Double downs are visually intimidating to under qualified cheer coaches so they shy away from them but that twisty flippy thing doesn't seem as difficult when the coaches realizes she has a 95 lb flyer and some big ol' bases.

This is from my experience working as a choreographer, and camp instructor. Coaches would ask me to teach their kids inversions before teaching them how base an extended lib first.

 

[OldskoolKYcheercoach]

YES lol. I feel like there should be more focus on working every middle schooler up to a solid power hurdle RO rebound (at least), and then working up from there but ROs are often treated as an annoying thing to be glossed over on the way to BHS country. On my middle school team, if you couldn't tumble you just threw a roundoff during running tumbling. No care for form. I didn't even know that ROs were supposed to be done a certain way until I started researching.

Not going to say where I live, but kids in my area often get th.eir tumbling from all-star or Pop Warner cheer (there is at least one serious program around here)

Another issue is that many kids teach themselves the cartwheel and the roundoff in the back yard. By the time they get to something organized they've got so many bad habits that they would be making withdrawals from their 401(k) before they would ever get them all corrected.

 

[Official OWECheer]

Maybe it's because of the area where I grew up (a highly competitive school cheer environment with no all star gyms), but I feel strongly that the explosion of the all star cheer industry is largely responsible for many of the safety issues and technique flaws we find in cheer today. In the mid-90's, all stars were doing skills that high school kids shouldn't do. Then they really exploded with all star competitions and for many years there was no consistency among all star competition with regard to rules. I remember going to WCA nationals one year to watch and high school kids were doing tuck, full, and double full baskets (yea, the flipping kind), and just dive-bombing into their bases. Then I went to an all star gym that had just opened in my home town. The coaches were teaching these skills with their own version of crappy technique in a "maybe this will make it better" fashion. Then I contracted with a couple of gyms to do some stunting clinics, and their were parents owning these gyms....OMG...one mom her her 75 pound daughter flying on two 50 pound bases, with a 7'4" 13 year old back spot (I don't know who this poor kid's high school volleyball coach is, but I was heavily pushing her in that direction during the whole clinic. She was too pretty to get her face beaten in by this horrible flyer).

I think the USASF has improved the environment for everyone involved, but we are still in the recovery phase.

Yes.... all-star pre-USASF was terrifying. I've heard stories of how, for example, coaches would add layouts and fulls to do well at one comp, then pull them out b/c they were illegal at another.

All-star created an environment in which there was tons of added pressure to out-skill everyone else (since competition was/is the only obligation), and without universal, consistent guidelines it was a hot mess. Some programs still have teams that are hot messes because they are so obsessed with being upper-level, especially level 5. USASF's existence hasn't stopped prelims at Worlds from looking like a steaming pile of 'hell no'... but my issue with bids is a whole different convo.

Another issue is that many kids teach themselves the cartwheel and the roundoff in the back yard. By the time they get to something organized they've got so many bad habits that they would be making withdrawals from their 401(k) before they would ever get them all corrected.

Do. Not. Even. Get. Me. Started. On the parents who think their kid is a great, competent tumbler because they "taught" them skills on a trampoline.

 

[cheer25mom]

Another issue is that many kids teach themselves the cartwheel and the roundoff in the back yard. By the time they get to something organized they've got so many bad habits that they would be making withdrawals from their 401(k) before they would ever get them all corrected.

I spent a LOT of money correcting CP's dance studio "that's good enough" early tumbling skills.

 

[Official OWECheer]

I spent a LOT of money correcting CP's dance studio "that's good enough" early tumbling skills.

What's funny is that people would save thousands if they let a good coach teach their kid the right way, the first time but when you try to slow progressions, some parents complain that the only motivation in doing that is making the coach more money... SMH. The only people that win from rushing are the surgeons and PTs.

 

[tojofasho]

This and 99% of dances. I find myself getting nostalgic when I watch old all-star routines. And I don't want helicopter-leg double downs to come back. Most teams (in HS and all-star) don't even hit clean full downs, why increase the difficulty window?

And don't get me started on tumbling.... we are going to need a serious incentive to clean things up in the coming years.

YES TO TUMBLING! At state qualifiers this past weekend I saw like four teams where girls literally did a tuck to their knees and/or face. There needs to be a distinction in penalties for things like that (a HUGE safety hazard) and things like touching after landing the tuck.

I spent a LOT of money correcting CP's dance studio "that's good enough" early tumbling skills.

I have a dance studio cheerleader with the archiest tuck in the entire world. I refuse to let her throw it and she always is so furious at me. Like girl, get a set first, I'm not putting that janky thing on the mat!

 

[AndyT_T]

If taught/performed correctly, the pancake stunt is a ton safer than the double down. If the top has adequate flexibility to perform the pancake stunt correctly, she puts herself in a position for the safest possible landing in case of a missed catch (any good stunt person will tell you that the safest landing is flat on the back). In the double down, the danger factor isn't really to the top, but to the bases. Jim Lord with the AACCA would be the person to ask, but I would bet the number of concussions related to flying elbows, 1 1/2 downs onto the face with arms out, knee-scissors, etc was astronomical compared to the number of injuries of any time related to pancakes. I've got a group now that can pancake like nobody's business, but none of them could spin through a double down in a great body position.



I hope not. Do you not find the high school routines at nationals to be much more entertaining now that everyone isn't trying (and mostly failing) to kick double/double down out of every stunt? The double down had become the end-all be-all dismount of high school cheer, and people had completely quit working on being creative, much like all star routines have become. Every level 5 all star stunt sequence is exactly the same these days. They all do a 1 1/2 up or a double up to some over-stretched body position, do some kind of inversion, a tick tock or two, and double down. All the flashy choreography, etc, just sucks the life out of me as they could be doing real skills during that time.

I don't think HS cheer and college cheer going the way of allstar where they have elite/level appropriate skills would be bad. It sucks to see creativity go away some but IMO school cheer not having compulsory skills makes the school score sheet kind of a crap shoot. Like the college score sheet says vaguely what they want to see and after that it's basically be more impressive than the other teams. Every other performance sport has compulsory skills and a more defined score sheet. I for one am tired of watching college teams just throw as many stunts as they can in to a routine hoping it helps, and I'm really tired of people every nationals saying this team or that team was robbed because so much is up for interpretation.

That being said, I would actually really like to see prep level 2 leg stunt double downs being legal in high school for varsity only - just to prepare them better for college- but definitely not kick doubles or body position doubles.

 

[AndyT_T]

We'll have to agree to disagree on this one. Pancakes are not that much more dangerous for all involved than a cradle. They only become dangerous if they're being taught to flyers who do not have the flexibility to pike themselves completely, or the guts to go hard. That's when a coach should be intelligent enough to put a stop to them (kudos to you, as some people aren't).

the problem with the double down was that it got to a point to where everyone was doing them, and probably less than 5% of the teams should have been.

Im not going to argue that doubles should be allowed but IMO pancakes NEED to go. A lot of people call them "Suicides" for a reason, and I see them go wrong at nationals and state all the time.

 

[dat.jpp]

I don't think HS cheer and college cheer going the way of allstar where they have elite/level appropriate skills would be bad. It sucks to see creativity go away some but IMO school cheer not having compulsory skills makes the school score sheet kind of a crap shoot. Like the college score sheet says vaguely what they want to see and after that it's basically be more impressive than the other teams. Every other performance sport has compulsory skills and a more defined score sheet. I for one am tired of watching college teams just throw as many stunts as they can in to a routine hoping it helps, and I'm really tired of people every nationals saying this team or that team was robbed because so much is up for interpretation.

That being said, I would actually really like to see prep level 2 leg stunt double downs being legal in high school for varsity only - just to prepare them better for college- but definitely not kick doubles or body position doubles.

But what about the schools that do deserve it? If they have good technique and what not?

 

[OldskoolKYcheercoach]

I don't think HS cheer and college cheer going the way of allstar where they have elite/level appropriate skills would be bad. It sucks to see creativity go away some but IMO school cheer not having compulsory skills makes the school score sheet kind of a crap shoot. Like the college score sheet says vaguely what they want to see and after that it's basically be more impressive than the other teams. Every other performance sport has compulsory skills and a more defined score sheet. I for one am tired of watching college teams just throw as many stunts as they can in to a routine hoping it helps, and I'm really tired of people every nationals saying this team or that team was robbed because so much is up for interpretation.

That being said, I would actually really like to see prep level 2 leg stunt double downs being legal in high school for varsity only - just to prepare them better for college- but definitely not kick doubles or body position doubles.

With the progression list that UCA has out for school teams, I don't view it as a crap shoot at all. My program isnt ready for the super elite class of skills yet, but I recognize this. I'm currently rolling the dice with the elite level skills and determining which ones we are going to be able to put in most efficiently. That's why it's called a progression grid, not a scoring grid. It's very cut and dry when you can watch a team do five or six skills in the advanced category and then the next team does 5 in the elite category, who should win (with all other variables created equally).

Where's the fun and incentive to create a new skill. I remember watching a partner stunt comp 20 years ago and Jeff Webb asked the guy who had just performed, "where do you come up with this stuff?" His response: "well we were practicing one day and I said why don't I just throw over my head and catch her?" That's where great stunt ideas have come from through the years.

With all stars every routine is identical. I've watched all stars for the last 10-12 years (had zero interest prior to that), and I've never, not once, ever, seen an all star team level 1-6 whip out a new skill that impressed me. A few years back when Kentucky put that kettle bell swing through hand-to-hand snap stretch in their nationals routine...jaw drop. Not to mention, Eisenhower used less paper planning D-day than the current all star scoring rubric.