High School Hs Higher Stunting Difficulty

[OldskoolKYcheercoach]

Yes.... all-star pre-USASF was terrifying. I've heard stories of how, for example, coaches would add layouts and fulls to do well at one comp, then pull them out b/c they were illegal at another.

All-star created an environment in which there was tons of added pressure to out-skill everyone else (since competition was/is the only obligation), and without universal, consistent guidelines it was a hot mess. Some programs still have teams that are hot messes because they are so obsessed with being upper-level, especially level 5. USASF's existence hasn't stopped prelims at Worlds from looking like a steaming pile of 'hell no'... but my issue with bids is a whole different convo.

Do you remember when it was actually hard to get a bid?

 

[OldskoolKYcheercoach]

But what about the schools that do deserve it? If they have good technique and what not?

What about the schools that do deserve what?

 

[Official OWECheer]

Do you remember when it was actually hard to get a bid?

LOL. I'm not even old enough to.

And on your other post, TGLC and Cheetahs are two of the few teams that impress me with creativity.

 

[Official OWECheer]

But what about the schools that do deserve it? If they have good technique and what not?

You can't just (re-)legalize a skill for certain schools. And there is no deserving/not being deserving of anything. Either you have a skill, or you don't. Skills get banned when too many injuries happen from people screwing them up (usually as a result of people rushing into them and skipping progressions, let's be honest). It sucks for the few schools that can actually execute them, but it has to happen for the greater good. If only they'd follow up banning with something that would actually make it such that skill(s) could be re-legalized without people re-entering Jank City.

One of my favorite bloggers explained this pretty well: Cheerleading Rule Changes, March 2012 | Cheerleading Daily

 

[OldskoolKYcheercoach]

LOL. I'm not even old enough to.

Circa 2003 or whenever World's first started up until about 2007, it was actually a source of pride for a team to get a bid.

Now the whole thing is a joke.

The Summit is even worse. They're giving out bids where you can go to Disney World and compete on Friday night for the chance to compete at Summit. What the hell kind of racket is that!?

High school nationals is just as bad...I'm in no way implying we aren't guilty of it to, although in our defense at least we haven't stooped to the level of the bid to get a bid to get a bid chicanery.

 

[Official OWECheer]

Circa 2003 or whenever World's first started up until about 2007, it was actually a source of pride for a team to get a bid.

Now the whole thing is a joke.

The Summit is even worse. They're giving out bids where you can go to Disney World and compete on Friday night for the chance to compete at Summit. What the hell kind of racket is that!?

High school nationals is just as bad...I'm in no way implying we aren't guilty of it to, although in our defense at least we haven't stooped to the level of the bid to get a bid to get a bid chicanery.

Oh yes... but when you're the 'best'/only available competitive option there's no need to worry about prestige.

 

[blyndreamalum]

I spent a LOT of money correcting CP's dance studio "that's good enough" early tumbling skills.

The gymnastics gym I took tumbling at back in high school offered and floor/tramp class for mainly cheerleaders with some dancers thrown in. I will never forget how scary those little dancers skills were and how hard the coaches worked to fix them.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[dat.jpp]

Obviously we aren't going to agree on the matter, and that perfectly fine with me lol.

In my state it was extremely rare to see double twisting skills period because many of the 'coaches' were unable to teach a proper full down like you've mentioned so spinning twice was never an option unless you had an allstar flyer join the team who already had the skill. Spinning skills require some shred of core strength, and technique for all parties involved even the most inexperienced cheer coach will pick up on that. However all of the amazing inversions from top notch schools like Greenup don't LOOK nearly as intricate as a double down so eventually these 'coaches' are going to have their girls try and eventually some little girl is going to take a fall she might not just get back up from.

I feel like my point is getting kind of hazy so I'll reiterate. Double downs are visually intimidating to under qualified cheer coaches so they shy away from them but that twisty flippy thing doesn't seem as difficult when the coaches realizes she has a 95 lb flyer and some big ol' bases.

This is from my experience working as a choreographer, and camp instructor. Coaches would ask me to teach their kids inversions before teaching them how base an extended lib first.

twist flippy thing = 360 Baja?

 

[Official OWECheer]

It all comes down to a lack of education. When someone actually receives an in-depth education about tumbling, it becomes impossible to act like little things don't matter because you have been shown how much they do, in fact, matter. Suddenly, that kid's low, slow, heavy, labored tumbling is no longer acceptable just because he/she is throwing a RO BHS tuck.
Not just that... but I have been told about judges giving incorrect tumbling "corrections" in scoresheet notes, such as "start twisting earlier [in your full]" even though a kid is twisting at the right time. I think what is often forgotten is the fact that poorly educated coaches usually result in poorly educated athletes who go on to coach themselves, or judge, or become poorly educated cheer parents (maybe some parents think Susie is supposed to have her BHS in a week because that was what was considered sufficient in her program when she cheered).

 

[FamousxMindset]

twist flippy thing = 360 Baja?

Twisty flippy thing was a broad generalizations of all of the new and exciting inversions that become legal in recent years.

 

[dat.jpp]

Twisty flippy thing was a broad generalizations of all of the new and exciting inversions that become legal in recent years.

oh cx

 

[AndyT_T]

With the progression list that UCA has out for school teams, I don't view it as a crap shoot at all. My program isnt ready for the super elite class of skills yet, but I recognize this. I'm currently rolling the dice with the elite level skills and determining which ones we are going to be able to put in most efficiently. That's why it's called a progression grid, not a scoring grid. It's very cut and dry when you can watch a team do five or six skills in the advanced category and then the next team does 5 in the elite category, who should win (with all other variables created equally).

Where's the fun and incentive to create a new skill. I remember watching a partner stunt comp 20 years ago and Jeff Webb asked the guy who had just performed, "where do you come up with this stuff?" His response: "well we were practicing one day and I said why don't I just throw over my head and catch her?" That's where great stunt ideas have come from through the years.

With all stars every routine is identical. I've watched all stars for the last 10-12 years (had zero interest prior to that), and I've never, not once, ever, seen an all star team level 1-6 whip out a new skill that impressed me. A few years back when Kentucky put that kettle bell swing through hand-to-hand snap stretch in their nationals routine...jaw drop. Not to mention, Eisenhower used less paper planning D-day than the current all star scoring rubric.

I don't have much experience in UCA, my highschool and college were both NCA schools and the NCA scoresheet leaves a lot to be desired, especially with intermediate divisions.

I think its a lot easier to look at someone like Jeff Webb, who did cheer much sooner, and list off all the creative things he did. But that's only because not a lot had been done - plus the list of what was too dangerous to be legal was much shorter. Those two things together makes it much easier to invent skills. A perfect example of that is Asian pyramids that have crazy crazy stuff in them because they have the liberty to create them.

That being said, I think it is HUGELY dismissive of cheer history to say all star hasn't churned out creative and impressive things consistently every year. The ball up 360? Smoed's swing through pyramid? Top Gun doing the first kick double? Holden Ray doing a double double double? The standing double? High to high 360 tick tocks? Double ups? The list goes on, that's just off the top of my head. If you haven't seen anything that impresses you you're not looking hard enough.
When I coached in Acro I heard them say the same thing about collegiate cheerleading and that being why it didn't impress them (In acro the stunt you're referring to is called a cannonball 360 inlocate assuming Im understanding the description correctly).
Creativity is a funny thing like that, if you go back far enough its hard to find something thats truly never been done before, it was only jaw drop amazing because it was the first time you'd seen it (Just like people gagged when CF Nfinity did a cannonball a few years after Kentucky, or when wildcats did the swing through that had previously been used in college cheer I believe).

Edit: Thats what the scoresheet of every performance sport -especially one that wants to be olympic- does and should look like.

 

[cheerisloving]

I will never understand why double downs are deemed more dangerous than the dreaded pancake stunt, though. Like "oh yeah you can't rotate twice, that would be crazy, but go ahead and literally go face first towards the ground." IMO they're both huge liabilities; my backspot in high school got her tooth knocked out on a double down that went wrong, but then this past year I had a cheerleader slip through the bases hands on a pancake and sprain her neck/get a concussion. I just never understood the logic in getting rid of double downs and putting in equally dangerous stunts haha, but I know not everyone thinks pancakes are deadly like I do.

I'm a level 6 college cheerleader and I still am emotionally scarred from the pancake stunt from HS. I didn't double in AS and the rules changed mid way through my HS career so I never did doubles until college. And I rather double than do a pancake.

 

[AndyT_T]

I'm a level 6 college cheerleader and I still am emotional scared from the pancake stunt from HS. I didn't double in AS and the rules changed mid way through my HS career so I never did doubles until college. And I rather double than do a pancake.

I think the reason I hate them is probably because Im a backspot so when things go wrong I can't do anything but watch my flyer hit the floor....
I think with the way things are going they're just going to get more dangerous too. Theres a HUGE trend in AS and HS of rearranging groups to make sure the back is always super tall comparatively to the group and super strong so that they can make saves, but that means the bases are getting used to having the strength of the back helping them and then suddenly the flyer comes crashing down and the back isn't there to help.

 

[cheerisloving]

I think the reason I hate them is probably because Im a backspot so when things go wrong I can't do anything but watch my flyer hit the floor....
I think with the way things are going they're just going to get more dangerous too. Theres a HUGE trend in AS and HS of rearranging groups to make sure the back is always super tall comparatively to the group and super strong so that they can make saves, but that means the bases are getting used to having the strength of the back helping them and then suddenly the flyer comes crashing down and the back isn't there to help.

When I was in HS we pancaked out of our pyramid.....We all went to dip to pancake and you kind of need to move your head out the way in that stunt but the backspot with tallest flyer had stepped in my space in his effort to keep contact with her...I sacrificed my face for the sake of my flyer.

Our groups are pretty distributed. I know as a base who is small (long limbs, if I got the stomach flu and lost 10 pounds I'd be in the air), I appreciate a tall back spot when I'm basing girls who are taller than me, it's good for evening out the stunt.