All-Star Is This Legal?

[TheVipersMom]

We don't have two in the same division but we do compete against our other teams for highpoint since we have multiples in the same level.

If one team consistently outscores another that's in the same level our gym will bring choreographers back or whatever they need to do to make sure both are just as successful. Our y2 and j2 have both each only lost one comp this year and both have gotten about the same amount of highpoints as the other. I know if j2 or y2 was better then the other they would fix it. We don't want people thinking that one team is better then the other or it creates a stigma the following year people only want to be on one over the other. So u have to make them equally successful.




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[MissCongeniality]

If everyone knew up front and was cool with it, I guess it would be okay... but way to kill the lesser L1 teams' confidence by purposely setting them up for defeat every single competition. Defeat to the kids they see in the gym every day. They're working just as hard (if not harder to get new skills) as the other kids. that just seems cruel. Most of the big, multi-location gyms with two teams in the same division will tell you it is less than ideal having them compete against each other. Yes, they could have camaraderie and support each other (and I often see said gyms try to build that bond between the teams), but I would feel "less than" on the "worse" team.

I would only be okay with this if the two teams had different competition schedules, a lesser fee, etc. Which is essentially a prep team so then what is the point? Just have a prep team.

In the olden days when I was a kid this was often done. Like with swimming--- There was an A relay and a B relay (and sometimes even more) It was considered a huge accomplishment when you finally were one of the 4 on the A team. You worked so hard to get that spot.

Even where my son used to play lacrosse they had the teams compete against each other (from same program at same level/age group) because there were so many kids playing. They were ranked A team, B team etc. but they also had multiple teams at the B and C levels that they tried to balance. So in addition to playing kids from other programs, they also played internally A vs B or B vs B etc.

So while I agree it can be frustrating (especially where you are one of so many and if you might feel that you are being brought down by your teammates) it can also be extremely motivating!

 

[Cheer_Up_Everyone]

There's another gym in our area that has 3 different locations and so they will sometimes have two different teams in the same division. For the most part they do not compete the same schedules but when they did I always found it very odd. Not that either was set up like this since they are different locations but I am pretty sure they are both going to Summit so that should be interesting.

IMO I don't think it'd be fair to set up a team to be the "lesser" team. What's the point of trying if you knew you'd always lose. Make them prep so they can actually compete against teams they stand a chance against.

My CP's team is this way. The gym has multiple locations and there is a team at another location - same division. The other team I think gets more notoriety than my CP's but the talent level is pretty equal. I think both take pleasure in beating each other in the few comps that they do together. So, for the most part, it's healthy competition. If they were under the same roof practicing though, that might not be the case. Worlds should be interesting.

 

[njallday]

In the olden days when I was a kid this was often done. Like with swimming--- There was an A relay and a B relay (and sometimes even more) It was considered a huge accomplishment when you finally were one of the 4 on the A team. You worked so hard to get that spot.

Even where my son used to play lacrosse they had the teams compete against each other (from same program at same level/age group) because there were so many kids playing. They were ranked A team, B team etc. but they also had multiple teams at the B and C levels that they tried to balance. So in addition to playing kids from other programs, they also played internally A vs B or B vs B etc.

So while I agree it can be frustrating (especially where you are one of so many and if you might feel that you are being brought down by your teammates) it can also be extremely motivating!

I mean I don't disagree with you.. even with musical instruments you're competing for first chair, second chair, etc. But I still do not think it works for cheer in it's current form for a few reasons:

1. Cheer is leveled within an age grid. The levels are essentially already the Senior/Junior/Youth A/B/C/D/E teams if you look at it that way.

2. It's only 2:30. You don't get to be rewarded with sitting on the bench and maybe jumping up to make a play in the A team lacrosse game. You can't just hop in and do a stunt on the "higher" team and hop out for tumbling to get "play time." (Yes, crossovers and alternates exist, but you're either competing on the team or not.)

3. In soccer/lacrosse/swimming you're all doing the exact same thing. Yes, some of you are better/faster/stronger, but you're all swimming the same relay. In soccer, for example, you teach all the kids the same plays and they do the same drills at practice (some better than others) and then you let them scrimmage each other. You expect the A team to win because it's the better kids, but they all are given the same tools to get there. If you made two Mini 1 teams in cheer and one was purposely the stronger kids, you'd be handicapping the "B" team by having to choose easier choreo, less difficult stunts, less than majority tumbling to meet the majority skill level of those kids.

For some kids it is absolutely a motivator and they will bust their butt to gain skills outside of the routine, no doubt. But the routine is still setting them up to fail.

 

[meetmeat_themat]

I really appreciate everyone's feedback here! I can totally see where you're all coming from. We had the issue with my old team where we had maybe 50 people going for a spot on a 32 man team. We only had one competitive team (not from a very 'cheer-popular' area) and those not chosen didn't have access to another team unless they drove for 3 hours.

Out of the chosen team there were maybe 2 really strong, solid stunt groups and maybe one or two additional very strong tumblers outside of these groups, the rest of the team were made of say 2 average stunt groups in terms of stunting and tumbling (either new members or older members who didn't have the elite skills) and 2 which would regularly drop/only be used as prep bracers/not tumble. We're not a huge program so we value training and enjoying the sport over serious competition (we don't have the funds to attend more than one national comp a year) however its disheartening for those who do work their butts off to always place in the bottom 3.

My thoughts for next year was to have a small team of only those who had the elite skills. The others would be placed in a 'development squad' to learn the necessary skills to make the higher level squad. Anyone who wanted a more casual approach could stay in the development squad indefinitely. We would have monthly assessments up until a month or two before competition where members could be moved from development to elite or vice versa depending on skill gain/loss. If an entire stunt group on development gained the elite skills they would be added to the higher level team (members would only "lose" their spot on the higher team due to bad attitude, lack of attendance or severe loss of skill).

It would be hard work re-working the routine to include them but I would have no issues doing this. We would still like the development squad to get to compete however, just not go to Nationals. Any comments/critiques on this? I can go into more detail if needed!

 

[cheer25mom]

I really appreciate everyone's feedback here! I can totally see where you're all coming from. We had the issue with my old team where we had maybe 50 people going for a spot on a 32 man team. We only had one competitive team (not from a very 'cheer-popular' area) and those not chosen didn't have access to another team unless they drove for 3 hours.

Out of the chosen team there were maybe 2 really strong, solid stunt groups and maybe one or two additional very strong tumblers outside of these groups, the rest of the team were made of say 2 average stunt groups in terms of stunting and tumbling (either new members or older members who didn't have the elite skills) and 2 which would regularly drop/only be used as prep bracers/not tumble. We're not a huge program so we value training and enjoying the sport over serious competition (we don't have the funds to attend more than one national comp a year) however its disheartening for those who do work their butts off to always place in the bottom 3.

My thoughts for next year was to have a small team of only those who had the elite skills. The others would be placed in a 'development squad' to learn the necessary skills to make the higher level squad. Anyone who wanted a more casual approach could stay in the development squad indefinitely. We would have monthly assessments up until a month or two before competition where members could be moved from development to elite or vice versa depending on skill gain/loss. If an entire stunt group on development gained the elite skills they would be added to the higher level team (members would only "lose" their spot on the higher team due to bad attitude, lack of attendance or severe loss of skill).

It would be hard work re-working the routine to include them but I would have no issues doing this. We would still like the development squad to get to compete however, just not go to Nationals. Any comments/critiques on this? I can go into more detail if needed!

make the development squad a prep team or have the squads as 2 different levels, and I think it would work just fine.

 

[meetmeat_themat]

make the development squad a prep team or have the squads as 2 different levels, and I think it would work just fine.

We don't have prep in our area unfortunately! Our main team are level 2 and we really would like the development squad working on level 2 stunts rather than spending a whole season working level 1 and then never getting the chance to move up? I can see complaints there already haha. Competing against each other at 1 or 2 comps max to me sounds better than never letting people move up? It would be impossible to coach the level 1 skills then also have classes for those wanting to learn the level 2 stuff.

 

[cheer25mom]

We don't have prep in our area unfortunately! Our main team are level 2 and we really would like the development squad working on level 2 stunts rather than spending a whole season working level 1 and then never getting the chance to move up? I can see complaints there already haha. Competing against each other at 1 or 2 comps max to me sounds better than never letting people move up? It would be impossible to coach the level 1 skills then also have classes for those wanting to learn the level 2 stuff.

When you say you don't have prep in your area do you mean that no one else is doing it? You CAN offer a prep team, even if no one else is. They wouldn't have teams to compete against initially, but that doesn't mean you cannot offer the program and hope other gyms will do the same.

 

[retiredl5cheer]

When you say you don't have prep in your area do you mean that no one else is doing it? You CAN offer a prep team, even if no one else is. They wouldn't have teams to compete against initially, but that doesn't mean you cannot offer the program and hope other gyms will do the same.

Sounds like the OP may not be from the U.S., so Prep divisions may literally not exist. Correct me if I'm incorrect @meetmeat_themat

 

[cheer25mom]

Sounds like the OP may not be from the U.S., so Prep divisions may literally not exist. Correct me if I'm incorrect @meetmeat_themat

Oh, I didn't catch that. Sorry!

 

[retiredl5cheer]

Oh, I didn't catch that. Sorry!

No worries - the poster didn't explicitly say it. I've just learned over the years that the structure of Euro programs tends to trend towards what he/she is talking about. I could be completely wrong.

 

[meetmeat_themat]

No worries - the poster didn't explicitly say it. I've just learned over the years that the structure of Euro programs tends to trend towards what he/she is talking about. I could be completely wrong.

Yep you're 100% correct! We only really have all star cheer, even schools and unis follow the same standards as all star but just have their own division e.g. we would have tiny 2, mini 2, youth 2, junior 2, senior 2, open 2, uni 2, high school 2 etc etc although most competitions only have smaller numbers so would just field a youth, junior, senior, primary school, high school, uni and open depending on numbers We would be entering Uni 2.

 

[Amie815]

Totally agree with you that sandbagging is unfair.

Now you're also starting a different discussion, is level 1 for beginners? When we first started cheer my then 6 yo was told she was welcome to join a team, I assumed it was because they thought she had good skills. (She had a killer cartwheel lol but not even a backbend.) Like in gymnastics, you're only asked to join the comp team if you have the right skills... Anyway, she ended up nuggeting A LOT. If I had known what I know now, I might have just had her do tumbling that season. She had some fun too though...

It's tough with level 1. There is a long way between a beginner and a veteran level 1 athlete. I wonder if any (maybe bigger) gyms turn away kids with no skills from level 1 teams and tell them to do a tumbling class first, or put them on prep if they have it?

I truly believe that is what the prep division should be for. Athletes with no previous experience or skills.

 

[123jump4!]

I truly believe that is what the prep division should be for. Athletes with no previous experience or skills.

I don't disagree, I believe that was the intention of prep. But around here prep is a cheaper alternative to full year allstar. We have prep teams in levels 1-3 and most kids are not beginners. So it's still unfair to the complete beginners.

Gyms should perhaps not advertise "no experience needed" for tryouts and instead advertise like 6 months before tryouts "join a tumbling class now and get your skills for tryouts!"

In not many other competitive expensive sports do you get on a team without any skills, it's kinda weird that you can in cheer.

At one gym we know they have a "pre-team" in the spring and they do a performance for the parents. I think that's a good idea!

 

[SL&AM]

At the end of the day, someone has to lose.

We can talk about all of the ways beginners are disadvantaged in this sport, but the reality is, we should focus the sport more on individual and team growth and less on the wins, the rings, the jackets, and the banners.

While those are all cool things---you can not expect them right off the bat and if you do, you'll be sorely disappointed most of the time.