All-Star 2012-2013 Age Grid For Worlds Teams

[Rudags]

Honest question, do you feel there should be a smaller division as in 12/16? I only ask this because you seem to have supported what I said previously that EP's are adjusting their grids to accommodate smaller teams. We have a jr 4 with 19 on it that is successful and last year had 18 (and they went undefeated with only 18) and I feel that less members helped us hit the grids better than teams of 20 that filled for the sake of filling. I'm just curious if across the country their is a large enough demand for a 12/16 smallER division across all levels? My gym does not qualify for "small gym" so should 12/16 be ONLY for "small gym" divisions or should it be added to all. Also do you think it should be across the boards in all levels and divisions?

We did not seem to do well on any scoresheet other than Cheersport and Jam Brands. The smaller independent companies scoresheets did not pan out well and as JulieP said - We got things regarding our small numbers on our scoresheets. I do not feel as though there should be a division for just 12 kids. I do see two sides to the argument though. If you could compete Junior 5 or Senior 5 with 12 kids - I think a lot more gyms could field a competitive level 5 team (or any level, just using my team as an example). However, the routines do look a little dead sometimes. 12 kids to fill up 9 panels of floor, it can be 'boring' for lack of better words. Our pyramid was boring (even tho i am known for safe pyramids that are clean to hit). Id rather load up my stunts for 'Wow Factor' and let pyramid be clean and hit the scoresheet so pretty much after running tumbling - I know our routine is 'done' - I know the kids like that relief too. Last year we through Ball Up 360's for my stunts and our pyramid was just some flips with slow counts, but our execution always carried us - and our difficult was there - It was just slow and boring. But I like the 20/32/36 thing we have going.

 

[Mclovin]

I don't know about other gyms, but at Twist & Shout I can guarantee you that if you are 5 foot tall, 100 pounds and 15 and you are honestly a good flier, you will have a fly spot regardless of how many 80 pounds junior aged fliers the gym has that are equally as capable. I have never seen a good senior aged flier taken out of the air at our gym and replaced by a tiny junior aged flier. Every team is gonna have it's weak links as far as bases go. Not every girl can base a 105-115 pound girl. Some bases only weigh 100 pounds themselves. Last year I saw a girl flying on our senior team. She was probably 5'4" and 125-130 pounds. She was GORGEOUS in the air. But when she fell, she fell HARD and people were getting hurt. It scared me every time I saw the stunt come down. That to me, is why if you limit the age for senior teams to 14 and up, you are at an increased risk of injuries. Now if I coach at a gym with 500+ athletes to choose from, I can STILL find enough small fliers to fill my teams. But when you coach at a gym of 150 or less, you use what you've got. I know our owner PREFERS to have all senior aged fliers on the team, for maturity and experience alone. But some years that's just not possible. And the more I see stunting requirements increased, the more I'm seeing junior aged fliers creep up onto the team...

 

[Tate sherman]

At least have Sr restricted 5 a division at worlds then.

 

[yojaehs]

At least have Sr restricted 5 a division at worlds then.

:deadhorse:

 

[cspoon]

I don't know about other gyms, but at Twist & Shout I can guarantee you that if you are 5 foot tall, 100 pounds and 15 and you are honestly a good flier, you will have a fly spot regardless of how many 80 pounds junior aged fliers the gym has that are equally as capable. I have never seen a good senior aged flier taken out of the air at our gym and replaced by a tiny junior aged flier. Every team is gonna have it's weak links as far as bases go. Not every girl can base a 105-115 pound girl. Some bases only weigh 100 pounds themselves. Last year I saw a girl flying on our senior team. She was probably 5'4" and 125-130 pounds. She was GORGEOUS in the air. But when she fell, she fell HARD and people were getting hurt. It scared me every time I saw the stunt come down. That to me, is why if you limit the age for senior teams to 14 and up, you are at an increased risk of injuries. Now if I coach at a gym with 500+ athletes to choose from, I can STILL find enough small fliers to fill my teams. But when you coach at a gym of 150 or less, you use what you've got. I know our owner PREFERS to have all senior aged fliers on the team, for maturity and experience alone. But some years that's just not possible. And the more I see stunting requirements increased, the more I'm seeing junior aged fliers creep up onto the team...

This is just my opinion, but what happens when the 15 year old 110lb flyer is replaced by a 12 year old 80lb girl. The 15 year old has probably never based a day in her life, and suddenly she is expected to base level 5 stunts. I definitely see someone getting hurt in that scenario as well.

 

[xpressjag]

We did not seem to do well on any scoresheet other than Cheersport and Jam Brands. The smaller independent companies scoresheets did not pan out well and as JulieP said - We got things regarding our small numbers on our scoresheets. I do not feel as though there should be a division for just 12 kids. I do see two sides to the argument though. If you could compete Junior 5 or Senior 5 with 12 kids - I think a lot more gyms could field a competitive level 5 team (or any level, just using my team as an example). However, the routines do look a little dead sometimes. 12 kids to fill up 9 panels of floor, it can be 'boring' for lack of better words. Our pyramid was boring (even tho i am known for safe pyramids that are clean to hit). Id rather load up my stunts for 'Wow Factor' and let pyramid be clean and hit the scoresheet so pretty much after running tumbling - I know our routine is 'done' - I know the kids like that relief too. Last year we through Ball Up 360's for my stunts and our pyramid was just some flips with slow counts, but our execution always carried us - and our difficult was there - It was just slow and boring. But I like the 20/32/36 thing we have going.

Agreed, Jam Brands score sheets its easier to have a smaller team and score well due to their quantity and difficulty scoring grid. Varsity is so open ended and has noted on score sheets, "would do better if you had more members for overall visual effect". It is just a frustrating situation that makes want to avoid specific competitions until the USASF does something about the divisions.

 

[Mclovin]

This is just my opinion, but what happens when the 15 year old 110lb flyer is replaced by a 12 year old 80lb girl. The 15 year old has probably never based a day in her life, and suddenly she is expected to base level 5 stunts. I definitely see someone getting hurt in that scenario as well.

IDK in that scenario but I can tell you my 13 year old 95 pound daughter who flew her entire cheer career started basing on her junior team this year and has done remarkably well. Basing high to high tick tocks and 1 1/4 ups with no problem. I believe it easier to teach a flyer to base than to have bases basing a girl much too big for them. Again, in our gym, that 15 year old 110 pound flier wouldn't be taken out of the air unless she couldn't get the job done as a flier.

 

[Tate sherman]

:deadhorse:

oh...

 

[Rudags]

Agreed, Jam Brands score sheets its easier to have a smaller team and score well due to their quantity and difficulty scoring grid. Varsity is so open ended and has noted on score sheets, "would do better if you had more members for overall visual effect". It is just a frustrating situation that makes want to avoid specific competitions until the USASF does something about the divisions.

Hence I don't attend Varsity events... I was all Jam brands this year minus ONE Varsity event just because its the Chicago areas first big one...

 

[SparkleSpankies]

1: Lets face it.. there are some girls that are flyers their entire life and some grow up too much in the level of all-star. FINE, but I think the argument is more often the less it is being shown that there are people being moved just because they CAN more easily do some skills. NOT ALL.

2: Some girls can base great right away! Former top girls typically need to really rely on technique to base. BUT some don't "want to learn" and well, could cause for also potential unsafe situations.

Personally I don't want my under 13-14 year old daughter on a team w/ 18 and some almost 19 year olds... but to each their own.

I am just looking out for the benefit of the girls.. that's all. I mean a 12 year old will become 13 and able to compete that level if it happens. It's not like they will only be age 12 forever and never have a chance. They will never say only 18 year olds can be on the team b/c it is completely unrealistic... but a talented gym who has a number of level 4 and 5 teams I am 100% positive can make do w/o a fetus.... and even smaller gyms I am pretty sure they could do and perhaps there could be an "exception system" for gyms w/ less then x amount of participants and a level 5 team, that they can only have x% of athletes under a certain age on a worlds elligible team.

 

[yojaehs]

Question: Is the issue that a 12 year old is beating out a 15 year old in "World's" divisions OR is there a BIGGER issue that a 9,10,11 year old is replacing 13+ on Sr level 1-4? Just curious bc I feel that a BOTTOM age across the board might lighten the pressure for "World's" 12 yr olds.

 

[Mclovin]

Question: Is the issue that a 12 year old is beating out a 15 year old in "World's" divisions OR is there a BIGGER issue that a 9,10,11 year old is replacing 13+ on Sr level 1-4? Just curious bc I feel that a BOTTOM age across the board might lighten the pressure for "World's" 12 yr olds.

I can tell you from competing in the Texas/Oklahoma area that the problem with TRUE fetus sized fliers exists MUCH MORE on lower levels than it does level 5. It's gotten to the point of being ridiculous. I haven't seen a "fetus" looking flier on a worlds team in a couple of years now....I don't mind being proven wrong if someone wants to point me to a team with one....

 

[SheCheers]

As a person who reached their PEEK of height at the ripe old age of 11, at 4'11" and who before getting pregnant with my 2nd kid, I topped out at 95lbs and I was 26 years old (no i was never a flyer and only cheered sideline in the 7th grade). Not all tiny people are under the age of 15. I find a lot of this talk insulting...not that i'm taking it personally, it's just that in cheerleading there are a LOT of small people! Let's face it...most tiny people have an easier time of tumbling vs their taller counterparts. They're also typically easier to lift. Just because someone is tiny doesn't mean they're under a certain age, it also doesn't mean they're lazy fliers. Small compact people typically have more body control than long thin people. It's just a body type thing! Quit hating on the petite people!!!

That being said raising the bottom age for worlds does not affect me or my cp at all. But I still don't get why people care so much when it's really a personal decision whether or not someone let's their 12 year old be on a team with an 18 year old. That's the bottom line. It really isn't a matter for the masses, it's a parenting issue that's personal. To me it just sounds like a bunch of people whining "it's not fair, that team has little flyers!" It just sounds like jealousy. Because no one ever complains about beast bases or tall backspots saying that a team has a bunch of 6' backspots and it's just not fair. and i guarantee if your team had 12 year old bases and backspots the age thing would be much less of an issue.

 

[newcheerdad]

I jokingly tell my our parents that I get a 10% finders fee of all bribes given for skill attainment

My way is archaic to some but it works for the way I teach. Having a skill in tumble class doesn't mean it is ready for a routine. i will let you work on a skill all day long in class as long as it is safe, but that does not mean it is routine ready. Once it is ready in a routine, it goes in the gym practice routine to see if they can do it full out with the rest of the routine. Then it eventually goes on the competition floor locally. Then finally it goes on the floor at big competitions when the pressure is really on. That is 4 different checks to one skill, before allowing a new one to be introduced into a routine. It not only deals with the physical skill, but the emotional, mental, and conditioning aspect as well. I have seen athletes who have a skill solid crack under the pressure of throwing it at a competition and not be able to throw it or land it. That should be taken into account by somebody. Of course this means a slower progression, but it also means that once they get it, they rarely lose it.

And this may be part of the issues that my daughter has - my daughter gets a skill, and it seems like within a couple of weeks gets asked to put it in a routine and show it off for the world. I think that pressure, combined with the comments about her skill not being "perfect", throws her off to the point where she backs off from throwing the skill at all.

And then we have to start over.

I honestly think if they let kids just throw the skills confidently in practice or in tumbling class for a few weeks before they even thought about putting them in a routine, it'd be better. But as you said, there's the other kinds of pressure as well - the pressure to get skills into the routine.

 

[SparkleSpankies]

I don't hate on petite people at all, I just feel bad for the very talented girls who get overlooked b/c there is a little itty 12 year old :-( PLUS so you go to worlds at 12, 13, 14... well, what is there to look forward to! Something in this world needs to be a provlidge.

I am not a parent or an all-star coach anymore, but just making a point. There is always an extra talented younger girl, but honestly if you watch MOST of the time (not all) these girls are brought up to fly, average standing tuck, sloppy full so they hide her until stunt time. I think that is the main issue. My issue is I just feel bad for girls b/c body image is important at that age and if they are getting pulled down just for a peanut (and in SOME CASES, this happens), it sucks.

At the end of the day, if they change the age, yes its only by a year but I think it's for big picture.... just not rushing kids into it, having a more balanced team. I just see the outsiders point of view and MAYBE I would feel completely different if I were in the situation and I always say my opinion when expressing that!