All-Star 2016 Summit Crossover Rules

[CheerDad18]

@twincheermom @randomactsofcheer @CheerDad18 @Cheerleading Is My Life @SarahS @Cheermom1969 lol, I didn't mean to make our gym sound like a revolving door. It plays by the rules and uses crossovers that are age and level appropriate only when needed for injuries and people quitting/moving late in the year, which is usually rare. I'm leery of a roster rule because my daughter, while on her Sr 2 team, experienced a lot of turnover, they DID NOT replace them with crossovers, they did replace them with kids that walked in the door that wanted to tryout throughout the year with age and level appropriate skills. Atlanta is a transient city but, most were life things, moving, finances, sick parent, poor grades, more commitment than expected, etc. A Sr. 1 and Sr. 2 team are not going to have the same level of commitment that World's team does (those kids will fly back and forth to practice if they move or live for a few months with a host family). Also, not all gyms make their members commit to a year long contract (commitment), many gyms front load things so it is pay as you go.

That Sr. 2 team did go to the Summit that year with age and level appropriate kids that were replaced throughout the year as the others left. They received their bid at UCA in March so, they would have been fine with the roster rules at that time, and all but two went to the Summit (finances and college cheer tryouts) . I don't believe under the current rules of crossovers, only going up or down one level, there is a huge loophole left to manipulate. A gym would have to have access to quite a few, outside the gym, level 4 and 5 cheerleaders to add them to a level 2 team, I don't see that happening. Since the Summit is a Varsity event, they would have the rosters from all of the Nationals if they want to check on crossovers, otherwise, Suzie does a good job of comparing photos and vidoes.

What you have to remember the current rule changes do not prevent a gym at a single competition for example putting 6 level 4 girls on a level 2 or level 3 squad to help them get a bid. I am talking about replacing girls not adding. That team gets its bid depending how large the gym is and how many athletes they have, you still could field a whole team of athletes who did not earn the bid but end up competing at Summit.

 

[catlady]

I think the only way for the "loopholes" to not work would be if a gym has most or all of their teams get bids. If only a couple teams get bids then they could place higher level kids on those teams. If S2 gets a bid and S4 doesn't, then kids from S4 could compete on the S2 team, not requiring kids from outside the gym.

What you have to remember the current rule changes do not prevent a gym at a single competition for example putting 6 level 4 girls on a level 2 or level 3 squad to help them get a bid. I am talking about replacing girls not adding. That team gets its bid depending how large the gym is and how many athletes they have, you still could field a whole team of athletes who did not earn the bid but end up competing at Summit.

But, roster rules wouldn't prevent your example either, at least at the current level of 10. I know you mentioned 80-85% depending large or small teams but, especially on Sr. level teams where cheer isn't the end all be all for many of them, it would crush those of our kids where it is important to them. Here's hoping your child is always on a team in her Sr. years where everyone makes cheer a priority. Otherwise, with your rules, you may be sitting on plane tickets and lose out on your comp fees because, Suzie and her friends want to go to Prom instead.

 

[CheerDad18]

But, roster rules wouldn't prevent your example either, at least at the current level of 10. I know you mentioned 80-85% depending large or small teams but, especially on Sr. level teams where cheer isn't the end all be all for many of them, it would crush those of our kids where it is important to them. Here's hoping your child is always on a team in her Sr. years where everyone makes cheer a priority. Otherwise, with your rules, you may be sitting on plane tickets and lose out on your comp fees because, Suzie and her friends want to go to Prom instead.

Trust me we had a few girls not want to miss their prom but they did. They actually did what they called a "fake prom" for the girls, they got all dressed up did pictures and a dinners the weekend after we got back.

As far as a rooster rule requiring 80% or 85% of the kids who won the bid being on the Summit team to compete would solve a lot of the problems of stacking. When Varsity does require the same new rules for its bid competitions as the Summit about crossovers that will solve 99% of the problems.

Not every solution is perfect, you notice I did put in there a .25 deduction if you exceed those limits.

 

[omgitssydthekid]

Trust me we had a few girls not want to miss their prom but they did. They actually did what they called a "fake prom" for the girls, they got all dressed up did pictures and a dinners the weekend after we got back.

As far as a rooster rule requiring 80% or 85% of the kids who won the bid being on the Summit team to compete would solve a lot of the problems of stacking. When Varsity does require the same new rules for its bid competitions as the Summit about crossovers that will solve 99% of the problems.

Not every solution is perfect, you notice I did put in there a .25 deduction if you exceed those limits.

I feel like a .25 deduction isn't large enough. If it was a 5 point deduction it might be a bit more effective.


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[CheerDad18]

I feel like a .25 deduction isn't large enough. If it was a 5 point deduction it might be a bit more effective.


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At 5 points you might as well stay home .25 per kid for a maximum of 1 point would be fair. For each kid that puts you under the 80 or 85% of the roster. The top 20 teams in the small J3 teams were separated by less than 2 full points. The top ten by 1 full point day one of the Summit

 

[omgitssydthekid]

At 5 points you might as well stay home .25 per kid for a maximum of 1 point would be fair. For each kid that puts you under the 80 or 85% of the roster. The top 20 teams in the small J3 teams were separated by less than 2 full points. The top ten by 1 full point.

That's exactly my point. If this was a rule, you should be punished for breaking it. One of my teams this year had a prep fall in pyramid because a base tripped and we were punished with a legality because a prep lib extended because the bases didn't notice the prep fall until it was too late. We broke a rule, by accident, and were punished.

If we want rules to be taken seriously, we need to force people to take them seriously.


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[CheerDad18]

That's exactly my point. If this was a rule, you should be punished for breaking it. One of my teams this year had a prep fall in pyramid because a base tripped and we were punished with a legality because a prep lib extended because the bases didn't notice the prep fall until it was too late. We broke a rule, by accident, and were punished.

If we want rules to be taken seriously, we need to force people to take them seriously.


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Assuming by your response you are a coach. So under your your rule a team small j3 12 girls win a bid beginning of the year. They have one girl who blows out her knee mid year and is done for the year their last competition before summit one girl gets a concussion and doctors won't clear her. They find 2 replacements go to Summit and during practice another athlete goes down. They are lucky enough to have another level age appropriate kid competeing on another level 3 team. Your going to hit that team with a 5 point deduction before they hit the floor?

 

[omgitssydthekid]

Assuming by your response you are a coach. So under your your rule a team small j3 12 girls win a bid beginning of the year. They have one girl who blows out her knee mid year and is done for the year their last competition before summit one girl gets a concussion and doctors won't clear her. They find 2 replacements go to Summit and during practice another athlete goes down. They are lucky enough to have another level age appropriate kid competeing on another level 3 team. Your going to hit that team with a 5 point deduction before they hit the floor?

If it's a rule, it's a rule. This is all hypothetical. We've had to rearrange routines the practice before a competition because of an injury or a kid didn't show up. It sucks, but if you can only replace X amount of people, and you're already at your limit, you need to compete with less.

This isn't a rule so none of this matters, but it's just my opinion. And yes, I'm a coach.


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[SarahS]

Assuming by your response you are a coach. So under your your rule a team small j3 12 girls win a bid beginning of the year. They have one girl who blows out her knee mid year and is done for the year their last competition before summit one girl gets a concussion and doctors won't clear her. They find 2 replacements go to Summit and during practice another athlete goes down. They are lucky enough to have another level age appropriate kid competeing on another level 3 team. Your going to hit that team with a 5 point deduction before they hit the floor?

Rechoreograph with fewer kids. It isn't rocket science.

 

[luv2cheer92]

But, roster rules wouldn't prevent your example either, at least at the current level of 10. I know you mentioned 80-85% depending large or small teams but, especially on Sr. level teams where cheer isn't the end all be all for many of them, it would crush those of our kids where it is important to them. Here's hoping your child is always on a team in her Sr. years where everyone makes cheer a priority. Otherwise, with your rules, you may be sitting on plane tickets and lose out on your comp fees because, Suzie and her friends want to go to Prom instead.

It may not prevent all crossovers, but I would rather a S2 team only have 4 or 5 S4 athletes (that 15-20%) than more than half of a team. Having a roster rule would absolutely help, though it wouldn't eliminate it. Though, if a rule is put into place, I could see more teams starting out the season with teams sandbagged and crossovers galore across the board.

 

[CheerDad18]

If it's a rule, it's a rule. This is all hypothetical. We've had to rearrange routines the practice before a competition because of an injury or a kid didn't show up. It sucks, but if you can only replace X amount of people, and you're already at your limit, you need to compete with less.

This isn't a rule so none of this matters, but it's just my opinion. And yes, I'm a coach.


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Trust me I am all for tightening things up. The thing you need to remember these are kids they may only earn one Summit bid in their cheer career. You know as well as I do with a 5 point deduction your done. There needs to be a balance something that is fair but doesn't cripple a team. Stuff happens, and there is a point when you should stay home.

At a full point your probably not going to make it to day 2. Or there needs to be a sliding scale 70% 10 or less 75% 15 or less, etc.

No and your right this isn't a rule. I think we can agree there needs to be some sort of roster rule about the people who won the bid need to be the ones competing at the Summit.

 

[omgitssydthekid]

Trust me I am all for tightening things up. The thing you need to remember these are kids they may only earn one Summit bid in their cheer career. You know as well as I do with a 5 point deduction your done. There needs to be a balance something that is fair but doesn't cripple a team. Stuff happens, and there is a point when you should stay home.

At a full point your probably not going to make it to day 2. Or there needs to be a sliding scale 70% 10 or less 75% 15 or less, etc.

No and your right this isn't a rule. I think we can agree there needs to be some sort of roster rule about the people who won the bid need to be the ones competing at the Summit.

I complete agree that we need a roster rule, and a sliding scale is something I could live with. Something just needs to be done done about it because the sandbagging crap needs to stop.


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[catlady]

Honestly, how many gyms actually abuse the system like this? I've heard of one level 1 team consisting of level 3, 4, and 5 kids this year. Yes, it absolutely stinks for those level 1 kids in that division, the gym owner or someone that claims to be the owner, has come on the boards defending his actions in the past. So, now we all know they proudly hang up banners in their gym where they had to put their level 3, 4, and 5 athletes on it to win against a level 1 team. Must be proud, slow clap for them. When I go through the Summit results, however, what I see are reputable gyms that are known for building strong teams from the start. I'm all for tightening up rules as well, I love NCA guidelines but, when you start tightening up lower level youth sports like the Olympics be prepared to pay the consequences monetarily, as well as, as a team.

 

[CheerDad18]

It will be interesting to see if the Event Promoters adopt Varsity's new cross over guidelines. I know NCA policy is even a little stricter.

Yes I spent sometime in the tent at Summit to watch our Senior Level 1 team who are true level 1 athletes and most have been with the gym 2 years or less. A couple of the girls may have gotten there back handspring over the course of the year.

I watched about 10 teams while waiting and the athletes definitely did not look like physically matched level 1 or 2. I know of one girl on our team who double teams on our j2 squad. Sadly our team did not make it to day 2.

 

[catlady]

Rechoreograph with fewer kids. It isn't rocket science.

It may not be rocket science but, it is a game of ratio's and parents need to understand as a coach you then have to make some hard decisions. All of the teams at the Summit are maxed out in difficulty so, as a coach do you:

1) Rework the routine with the remaining kids, your ratio's are blown, and ask everyone to do voodoo fingers in hopes every other team will fall? Or,

2) Rework the routine, and remove some kids to keep your ratio's and the team competitive?

Parents, also, need to realize these hypothetical rules encourage planning alternates at the beginning of the year and gives large gyms with multiple teams at this event a huge advantage over those that may have 1 or 2 teams. It all sounds good until the cards actually fall and then parents realize what those rules mean and they are paying the consequences.

The truth is, the parents of these gyms are going to laud these owners as "genius" as they replace athletes to get bids and replace athletes to win rings. We all know who they are so, now I guess it boils down to, "How much are their lack of morals and lack of ability to coach on level, lower level teams going to cost all of us?" A truth I learned the hard way, rules keep honest people honest, for the morally lacking, they are always just obstacles.