All-Star Can We Avoid Sandbagging Through The Athlete Tracking System?

[hawkeye87]

I think that usasf should consider having stricter crossover rules to help to eliminate this problem. I know of gym in a certain area that every eligible kid on their senior 5 team crossed over onto every senior, junior and international open team that their gym had and I mean every kid. (Its a small area and we all know each other and grew up with each other so i do know each of them personally) and then they would brag about how many teams they were on and would complain about competitions not taking their crossovers into account. please !!! Half way through the competition season, those kids who were crossing over were visibly exhausted at competitions and would end up getting seriously injured.

Its not just about the issue of winning my problem how is this fair to the other gyms who don't use that many crossovers? i know life isn't fair but we should at least try to make this a little more fair. secondly, I don't understand how kids are managing that many practices in one week and managing to keep up their school work, have a social life and all the other stuff they need to do. Also for those kids who are those big name big pressure teams, that is alot of pressure to be putting on their shoulders... they have multiple routines to learn and hit, school and everything else in their lives and honestly they need time to just be kids. I know when I was in high school, I was on two different cheer teams, trained another high level sport, school and work etc and I regret that I honestly never had time outside to just be a high school kid.

I know we all want to win worlds and summit and have a million national championship banners but I think as a coach it is important to remember that you are in the position of being a role model and that not only are you coaching but you are helping to shape who these kids will be and to teach them to have integrity, be fair minded and teach your kids how to win and lose gracefully.

Ok rant over

 

[yojaehs]

One thing that I see helping besides the registration mandating is the implementation of what is a gym. Gyms with multiple locations have to decide to be under an umbrella or individual. Outside of Level 5 this will be an immediate impact. I can name several gyms this will affect.

That's already a rule starting this season.

 

[yojaehs]

Again, let me say this. As we all know by now (if you've ever read my thoughts on this) I'm not a crossover fan. HOWEVER, every gym can justify their crossovers. Some crossover only in case of injury, some use it to gain experience at different levels, some just want to stack teams. ALL are 100% legal, therefore I have no issue with any gym that chooses to use crossovers the way they choose to. Until USASF makes a rule, this will continue to be the "chicken or the egg" of the cheerleading chat.

 

[BamaCheerGuy]

That's already a rule starting this season.

Yep, it will be an awakening to some and it will be a big help.


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[yojaehs]

Yep, it will be an awakening to some and it will be a big help.


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It only separates between large and small gym. I don't see much changing bc a gym can choose which way they want to go.


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[BamaCheerGuy]

It only separates between large and small gym. I don't see much changing bc a gym can choose which way they want to go.


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True, but for those with 5 or 6 locations it will affect how that works. Say they umbrella, are you gonna take a kids fr another location to help one team when said athlete could help their home gym. Especially when we are talking about level 5 worlds teams. If they are separate then they can't share. I can name 6 gyms this affects. Does the umbrella gym choose which level 5 team it supports. Somebody gets butt hurt.


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[yojaehs]

True, but for those with 5 or 6 locations it will affect how that works. Say they umbrella, are you gonna take a kids fr another location to help one team when said athlete could help their home gym. Especially when we are talking about level 5 worlds teams. If they are separate then they can't share. I can name 6 gyms this affects. Does the umbrella gym choose which level 5 team it supports. Somebody gets butt hurt.


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If umbrella gyms philosophy is to cross btw gyms chances are their customers will know this in advance. If I was them and others customers had an issue I wouldn't care. Those gyms didn't get that size bc they are idiots. I'm sure they will either umbrella and share or individualize and separate. Either way I'm sure they will be fine.


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[BamaCheerGuy]

If umbrella gyms philosophy is to cross btw gyms chances are their customers will know this in advance. If I was them and others customers had an issue I wouldn't care. Those gyms didn't get that size bc they are idiots. I'm sure they will either umbrella and share or individualize and separate. Either way I'm sure they will be fine.


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I think some gyms that have branched so far out they can't coach them anymore. The true power gyms will be those that are big at one location two at the most. I have watched the discontent of multi facility gyms. People first think a name will make them automatically better. They then realize its not what they think. Going to a competition and having three teams from the same gym umbrella is not good for anyone. It's a free world and anyone can open up as many as they want. Smaller gyms are benefitting from this. It's happened in several places already.


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[yojaehs]

I think some gyms that have branched so far out they can't coach them anymore. The true power gyms will be those that are big at one location two at the most. I have watched the discontent of multi facility gyms. People first think a name will make them automatically better. They then realize its not what they think. Going to a competition and having three teams from the same gym umbrella is not good for anyone. It's a free world and anyone can open up as many as they want. Smaller gyms are benefitting from this. It's happened in several places already.


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Well the gym owners of large, multi location programs I know seem to be handling it well. Different programs see success differently. I still don't see that rule changing much.


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[CGAcheer]

do those gyms even have "small gym" locations? Unless you are wanting to compete in the small gym division there is no point in not being "one gym"

 

[BamaCheerGuy]

If umbrella gyms philosophy is to cross btw gyms chances are their customers will know this in advance. If I was them and others customers had an issue I wouldn't care. Those gyms didn't get that size bc they are idiots. I'm sure they will either umbrella and share or individualize and separate. Either way I'm sure they will be fine.


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That's true. Depends on what they are looking for in terms of success. 800 kids at 4 or 5 locations or 200 at one with various titles. I know a gym that recently purchased 5 locations in one year. However they have probably 3 or 4 banners among 30 teams. That's why I chose Brandon, one big family gym that puts both effort and caring into the facility. If you guys had 6 facilities how could you be at all of em? It would be hard. I know you like being there and hands on but we would have to clone you! Then we would have more Bama fans, that's a positive!


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[BamaCheerGuy]

Then you have ACE which can be the exception. You have JR, Happy, Brandon, Dan. That's a successful strategy, but that is the exception, not the rule.


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[SassyRachael]

I personally don't understand why everyone gets so upset over this issue & here's why.
I have level 4 &5 skills but I'm currently on a level 3 team because that's the highest level team my gym has this year.
I don't personally feel that it's unfair for the girls who have only up to level 3 skills because I am only performing level 3 skills.
I don't think athletes should be penalized for having skills above the level that they compete at, most do &/or are working on higher level skills.
The level you compete at has to do with your level of comfort with the skills & what your gym offers you.
To be completely honest with you for me some of the level 3 skills are harder than the level 4 & 5 skills. I'm 18 years old and in the cheer world I'm no spring chicken. I've been doing gymnastics & cheerleading my entire life & it really has taken a serious toll on my body. I have sciatica & early arthritis in most of my joints. Doing the many BHS required for me to be on a level 3 team is much harder & more painful for me than standing tuck & fulls because they jar my shoulders,wrists & back more.
Personally I do not compete on a lower level team when I have higher level skills to stick it to anyone, I do not throw any of my higher level skills ever in competition or in warm ups. I do not use them as an intimidation tactic.
I am on a level 3 team to throw level 3 skills & hit level 3 stunts.
In my experience being on both higher level teams and lower level teams both work just as hard & I am just as exhausted after the different routines.
I put my heart & soul into the team I'm on & I do not appreciate my teams success being down played because I can do more skills. That simply has no bearing on how well my team does because like I said earlier I am only performing level 3 skills.

 

[retiredl5cheer]

@SassyRachael In your situation, I wouldn't say that your team is "sandbagging." What most of us are concerned with is when the entire team is throwing skills that are levels higher than the level they are competing. People are referencing level 2 teams that are stacked with level 3, 4 and 5 kids or level 3 teams almost completely comprised of level 5 crossovers. The teams they are referring to have 75% of kids throwing higher level skills, etc. One athlete doesn't make a difference. The problem comes when a gym cross competes half of their level 5 team to their level 3 team.

 

[SassyRachael]

@SassyRachael In your situation, I wouldn't say that your team is "sandbagging." What most of us are concerned with is when the entire team is throwing skills that are levels higher than the level they are competing. People are referencing level 2 teams that are stacked with level 3, 4 and 5 kids or level 3 teams almost completely comprised of level 5 crossovers. The teams they are referring to have 75% of kids throwing higher level skills, etc. One athlete doesn't make a difference. The problem comes when a gym cross competes half of their level 5 team to their level 3 team.

Well I'm not the only one on my team who can throw at least level 4 skills, I'd say it's about 50/50. But what I'm trying to say is as long as they're only throwing skills that meet the level that they're competing at I don't think it's unfair at all. Even if they have higher level skills or are a cross over from a higher level team. They're being judged on the same skills as the rest of the teams. Having higher level skills is helpful with lower level skills but the technique should be what makes your BHSs or tucks amazing,not the fact that you can do a full or layout.
What I'm trying to say is basically as long as the technique is there, how many other skills someone else may have won't automatically make their lower level skills so much more spectacular.
I simply don't believe it's unfair no matter how many girls a team pulls down from a higher level.
I understand why people feel it is however, but I believe that if you're a coach & your mad because a team beat you doing the same leveled skills then you need to work your team on that level of skills technique & run them through more full outs so it will be just as simple for your team as it is for the ones who have the higher skills. The reason it's nothing to them is that their bodies are better conditioned for the skills, but you don't have to have higher level athletes for that. They simply need to be conditioned better.
That's just how I feel about it though, even if you believe it's wrong to use higher level athletes on lower level teams there currently are no rules preventing it so really working your athletes to be the best they can be at the level they're at is the best thing you can do. I was on a level 2 team a few years ago they beat teams who literally used their whole level 5 team, none of us at the time had anything past a layout. We beat them because our technique was on point & we were clean. They were very good & intimidating but what I'm saying is it comes down to technique.
I'm not trying to be rude so if in any way I came across as rude or disrespectful to anyone please forgive me, It was unintentional.