All-Star Crossovers And Sandbagging

[SmileyRyleigh]

Sandbagging is just another example of how important "winning" has become in our sport. Parents pay thousands of dollars each season for their kids to cheer, and while winning may be some parents' ideas of "getting your moneys worth," is it really worth it if Suzie is on a level 3 team with solid level 5 skills? Is that NCA jacket really worth dropping down a few levels? Wouldn't a win feel better if you're challenging yourself and your team? Some gyms don't have level 5 teams, which is understandable if you can't field one, but when 90% of your "level 3" team are "true" level 5 athletes, season after season, and you're winning (almost) every competition in level 3, something needs to be done. One gym in particular never ceases to amaze me in doing this. Do kids want to win every competition? Yes. Is that realistic? Probably not. But when you have no "true" level 3 athletes on your level 3 team, how is that fair to the smaller gyms competing in the same division who have a team of "true" level 3 athletes? Yes, you're winning. But not fairly, and you're also teaching your athletes that it's okay, when it's not. It makes it harder for the smaller gyms to thrive when Gym A has sandbagged almost every level and is winning everything, and Gym B has gotten maybe one first place and a few seconds and thirds, but they have true levels. If a clueless/ new cheer parent goes into this situation, they're more likely to see the quantity of wins than the quality of the wins. So, Gym A seems like the better gym because they win, even when they aren't fair wins.

ETA: This post probably doesn't make as much sense as I think it does. I'm tired.

 

[Sparkle Mom]

How do people feel about crossovers that are under 8? Or even 10. The two younger girls on our Jr. 2 crossover to Minis. Honestly, without them, they wouldn't have been able to form a Mini team. I have had several people ask me if CP (7) will cross-over to Minis next year. I think she could handle it physically. But I think cheering with an extra team will take away from the time that is normally devoted to her personal growth in the sport (privates, tumbling/flight classes). I don't think I would be okay with her doing the extra team AND the extra classes at this age. I think it would be too much pressure physically and mentally. It would take a lot of convincing for me to allow CP to cross-over at this age. But to each their own!

I think it certainly depends on each child. My cp was asked to cross up to a higher level this year at 8 and has had no problems being I both teams. It is different however than someone asking her to cross down.. She probably wouldn't have wanted to if it was not a higher level team.

 

[klynn64]

Sandbagging is just another example of how important "winning" has become in our sport. Parents pay thousands of dollars each season for their kids to cheer, and while winning may be some parents' ideas of "getting your moneys worth," is it really worth it if Suzie is on a level 3 team with solid level 5 skills? Is that NCA jacket really worth dropping down a few levels? Wouldn't a win feel better if you're challenging yourself and your team? Some gyms don't have level 5 teams, which is understandable if you can't field one, but when 90% of your "level 3" team are "true" level 5 athletes, season after season, and you're winning (almost) every competition in level 3, something needs to be done. One gym in particular never ceases to amaze me in doing this. Do kids want to win every competition? Yes. Is that realistic? Probably not. But when you have no "true" level 3 athletes on your level 3 team, how is that fair to the smaller gyms competing in the same division who have a team of "true" level 3 athletes? Yes, you're winning. But not fairly, and you're also teaching your athletes that it's okay, when it's not. It makes it harder for the smaller gyms to thrive when Gym A has sandbagged almost every level and is winning everything, and Gym B has gotten maybe one first place and a few seconds and thirds, but they have true levels. If a clueless/ new cheer parent goes into this situation, they're more likely to see the quantity of wins than the quality of the wins. So, Gym A seems like the better gym because they win, even when they aren't fair wins.

ETA: This post probably doesn't make as much sense as I think it does. I'm tired.

Your post makes a lot of sense. The parent new to cheer just needs to recognize that banners and trophies don't give the whole picture. Parents need to look inside themselves and examine why they are joining a gym. If the only reason is my kid wants to cheer they need to realize it's not that simple. All Star Cheer is not a hobby or extracurricular activity. It's a lifestyle. And the gym you chose needs to reflect your own values and desires. Your core values need to parallel the gym's philosophy. Your desires need to align with the gyms desires. For example, if teaching your child honesty, fairness, and working hard to reach your goals is of utmost importance to you and you join a win at all costs gym, you will have difficulty. Conversely, if you're an ultra competitive aggressive person with an all in mentality, you will never be happy with a laid back gym where the parents are content going to regional competitions and never placing top three. There's no right or wrong philosophy, just different. So, new parents look beyond the wins and losses. Sit in on practices to see their approach and how they deal with the athletes. TALK TO THE PARENTS. It may seem a lot to do. But do it so that you don't find yourself in the midst of a disaster. Do it so that you never find yourself in a compromising position or feeling trapped in a no win situation. Do it so that cheer can be everything you hope it to be. Do it so that you can experience what keeps all of us coming back to cheer year after year.

 

[amy1k]

I've never really seen this happen in a way that it was obvious...like I've only had guesses and heard gossip and speculation. Until yesterday. At a very small competition, I saw a level 4 team awarded high point for 3/4/5. The team turned to go sit in their spot on the stage. As they walked away, their level 2 team was announced grand champ of the comp. Those same kids turned back around and claimed their prize.

 

[cupieqt]

Just sayin...but we won fair and square today


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[FierceIsTheName]

I've never really seen this happen in a way that it was obvious...like I've only had guesses and heard gossip and speculation. Until yesterday. At a very small competition, I saw a level 4 team awarded high point for 3/4/5. The team turned to go sit in their spot on the stage. As they walked away, their level 2 team was announced grand champ of the comp. Those same kids turned back around and claimed their prize.

Just putting it out there that my team got the highest level 3 score yesterday

I noticed those boys on both teams. Wouldn't be surprised if they had higher skills than level 4. (They have a small sr coed 5, right?)

 

[amy1k]

Just putting it out there that my team got the highest level 3 score yesterday

I noticed those boys on both teams. Wouldn't be surprised if they had higher skills than level 4. (They have a small sr coed 5, right?)

What was the 3/4/5 thing, then???

Edited...oh, I see, bc they awarded it together, right? Anyway, did you see the awards? All of them turned back around. Lol!

 

[FierceIsTheName]

What was the 3/4/5 thing, then???

No clue, but we were really hoping to get level 3 champs but they combined them all i guess. We weren't announced as level 3 champs but were told we were by our coaches but i guess they decided to change it to 3/4/5?? Cause level 1 and level 2 had their own level champs, right? I hate that comp ugh

 

[amy1k]

Lame! It was better this year than last, I think. So, hopefully it will continue to get better!!!

 

[CheerBank]

Because, I hope, that the maturity level of a 14 year old would be much different than an 18/19 year old. Hence the topics of conversations of what those kids are going through would be more NC-17 as opposed to PG-13.
But I did add the caveat that it should be a case by case basis. Honestly, unless we change gyms, the odds my CP will be on a S4 team at age 10/11 are very high.

I know I replied to this before but a conversation I had with cp on the car ride home from practice made me think of your post in this thread. My cp is 14 1/2 and is on a large junior 4 as well as a sr 5. In one of her jr 4 stunt groups is a 10 year old (not the flyer btw). Cp was telling me how she is fond of but not really close with the younger kids on her team because there is such a big age difference - this kid for example is in 5th grade (the same as my youngest non-cp).
Anyway cp and the flyer (who have been cheering together since they were in 5th grade) were having some conversation and then suddenly stopped because they realized how inappropriate it was for a 10 year old to be listening to whatever they were discussing (I did not ask, I did not want to know). When they stopped though, the 10 year old chimed in with "And????" wanting to hear the rest of it. Cp also told me that the kid who didn't talk to them a lot in the beginning because she was probably a little intimidated, now calls them "b!tch" all the time - affectionately - when she talks to them. When my cp told her she really wasn't comfortable with the kid calling her the b-word, the kid said, "well what should I call you, Mom?"

 

[retiredl5cheer]

I know I replied to this before but a conversation I had with cp on the car ride home from practice made me think of your post in this thread. My cp is 14 1/2 and is on a large junior 4 as well as a sr 5. In one of her jr 4 stunt groups is a 10 year old (not the flyer btw). Cp was telling me how she is fond of but not really close with the younger kids on her team because there is such a big age difference - this kid for example is in 5th grade (the same as my youngest non-cp).
Anyway cp and the flyer (who have been cheering together since they were in 5th grade) were having some conversation and then suddenly stopped because they realized how inappropriate it was for a 10 year old to be listening to whatever they were discussing (I did not ask, I did not want to know). When they stopped though, the 10 year old chimed in with "And????" wanting to hear the rest of it. Cp also told me that the kid who didn't talk to them a lot in the beginning because she was probably a little intimidated, now calls them "b!tch" all the time - affectionately - when she talks to them. When my cp told her she really wasn't comfortable with the kid calling her the b-word, the kid said, "well what should I call you, Mom?"

YIKES. Classic case of a kid trying to appear cool in front of the "older kids." Not good.

 

[CheerBank]

YIKES. Classic case of a kid trying to appear cool in front of the "older kids." Not good.

I remember when cp was in 5th grade and we had kids in 10th grade on her Jr3. My 8th grader at the time was also on that team. She was always more on the innocent side so you can imagine her shock when she found out exactly what transpired at UCA between her teammate and another teammate's brother while a parent was in the room sleeping. That information was definitely kept from my 5th grader. The wide range of ages on teams can absolutely be a good and bad thing.

 

[SmileCat]

My little sister brought up a good point to me yesterday and i'm sure this has been mentioned..
A gym brought a few teams with them to NCA. While speaking to an athlete she is friends with (who double teams), she revealed the strategy behind why the particular teams were brought to NCA. Since her friend (and a few others) crosses over between two different levels, her lower level team was selected to go because the coaches believed the team would have more success.
Basically, how does the other team feel after this? Being told they can't compete at NCA because they have too many crossovers, but the other, lower level team gets to go because they're "better".

 

[CheerBank]

My little sister brought up a good point to me yesterday and i'm sure this has been mentioned..
A gym brought a few teams with them to NCA. While speaking to an athlete she is friends with (who double teams), she revealed the strategy behind why the particular teams were brought to NCA. Since her friend (and a few others) crosses over between two different levels, her lower level team was selected to go because the coaches believed the team would have more success.
Basically, how does the other team feel after this? Being told they can't compete at NCA because they have too many crossovers, but the other, lower level team gets to go because they're "better".

Since they can't compete with crossovers across levels, it makes complete sense to me to take the team which would be more successful. Cp was on a jr 3 and a sr 4 last year, there were quite a few crossovers. Hands down if one team would have gone, it would have been the jr 3.
As an athlete....I think they know which is the better team. Unfortunately the truth hurts sometimes. I would guess that some if not all of the athletes (and parents) who were only part of the team not going would feel left out and devalued, because that is how I would feel.

 

[cupieqt]

My little sister brought up a good point to me yesterday and i'm sure this has been mentioned..
A gym brought a few teams with them to NCA. While speaking to an athlete she is friends with (who double teams), she revealed the strategy behind why the particular teams were brought to NCA. Since her friend (and a few others) crosses over between two different levels, her lower level team was selected to go because the coaches believed the team would have more success.
Basically, how does the other team feel after this? Being told they can't compete at NCA because they have too many crossovers, but the other, lower level team gets to go because they're "better".

This wouldn't hold water at my gym. Our culture is to give our entire program respect. Sure some of my teams may have a better shot simply based on how they are as a team. But it is never bc I've stacked one team over another or because they don't get attention.

I stand behind all of my teams--even the "weaker" ones. I only split up travel comps so I can give parents a break on those costs. It has zero to do with who can win and who can't (*because we try to set every team up as a winning team). My crossover teams always travel together so it saves those parents the extra costs.


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