All-Star Crossovers And Sandbagging

[MissCongeniality]

So I am reading on another thread about a CP crossing/competing on two teams at Summit (I think it was a R5 to 4 ) and it made me think...here we are blaming EPs for allowing and gyms for using crossovers and sandbagging but we as parents can solve this problem, just don't let your CP do it...period. Choose a level and stick to it, Fine, cross from a jr to sr age team if you think you have to be on 2 teams, but stay in the same level. It is that simple. Change starts at home...

Every single parent...gym owner...EP will "rationalize" why it's okay to do "in their situation". And the reality is it's not fair to call anyone a "cheater" for doing something that's not against the rules. Name calling certainly isn't a good lesson for our children!

Trust me...as a former athlete and as someone who worked in a competitive career...I totally understand the frustration with this situation. But rather than point fingers and call names...either do something or, perhaps, teach your child a different lesson...that winning isn't everything! That sometimes you "win" by doing your personal best and learning to take satisfaction in that. Those medals? The jackets? At the end of the day...that is "stuff". Or, as my CP put it (she gave boxes away when we moved) "I have visions of hobos (her word) all over the area in national champion jackets".

Look...I understand wanting to "win". I recall a time I got up on the block in a relay. I was a breaststroker but often had to swim the butterfly leg. I was 13. In the lane next to me ready to swim fly...the current World record holder. Talk about an "I don't stand a chance" moment. But my teammates cheered me on...told me to do MY best and to try to keep them in range. I'm sure we felt like it wasn't fair to be up against an Olympic gold medalist and world record holder...but guess what...that's sometimes what happens in life. How you face that ...is what makes you the person you become.

 

[Labegg]

Don't get me wrong I think the EPs need to do something about it too as well as the industry as a whole. Still not sure why cheer don't have player cards like they do in soccer. Photo ID that is checked against the roster at the start of the competition by the judges/EP. Jeeze it is not that complicated. If the EP can organize an event, they can check the rosters too.

 

[luv2cheer92]

So I am reading on another thread about a CP crossing/competing on two teams at Summit (I think it was a R5 to 4 ) and it made me think...here we are blaming EPs for allowing and gyms for using crossovers and sandbagging but we as parents can solve this problem, just don't let your CP do it...period. Choose a level and stick to it, Fine, cross from a jr to sr age team if you think you have to be on 2 teams, but stay in the same level. It is that simple. Change starts at home...

I would say that more often the not, the parents are ok with their kids crossing over if they are allowing it. Idk I'm not a parent so I could be wrong.

 

[MissCongeniality]

Don't get me wrong I think the EPs need to do something about it too as well as the industry as a whole. Still not sure why cheer don't have player cards like they do in soccer. Photo ID that is checked against the roster at the start of the competition by the judges/EP. Jeeze it is not that complicated. If the EP can organize an event, they can check the rosters too.

The ID works to confirm their identity...but who is to say what "level" they must be? What is they are a bomb tumbler but can't dance or jump to save their life? What if new skills are gained in October or December or ? I'm not disagreeing with you...rather playing devils advocate. Because this is a team sport with different areas being judged...you are always going to have a mix of talents.

Trust me...watching the Level 5 team step back on to the mat as a Level 2 is crazy frustrating. But the lesson your child is learning is much better than the lesson the "win at all costs" sandbagging team members are learning. Real life doesn't allow sandbagging in most situations...that's going to be a wake up call for many kids down the road. But life also isn't "fair". Sometimes people get the job not because they were the "best" but because of some other factor like "name" (Yes, the business I was in this was common) We need to teach our kids these lessons so they are better able to cope moving forward. The "win by sandbagging" will not serve well growing up.

 

[tumbleyoda]

This issue is one of ethics. Crossovers make EP's money. It insures that a team will not pull out of competitions easily because of an injury, illness, etc. The same reasons we all consider to be legitimate reasons to crossover; yet it also opens the door to stacking teams. For those that charge crossover fees it is extra money. There is nothing to push them to change this because it will hurt their pockets. For the gyms that charge extra for an athlete to crossover, they make extra as well. Is our preference to crossover? No. We would rather the intact team that we put together at tryouts compete every single time. That is the team we want on the floor. That has yet to happen at any gym I have been at.

Ultimately parents, athletes and gyms have the power to control this issue. You decide if you want to do it or not. You can always say no. And if the gym forces you to, that is a gym you may want to reconsider being at. As a gym we used one assigned crossover for the year. However due to illness, injury, or an athlete quitting; at every competition this year we have had to crossover someone to at least one other team. If we could fix the stunt situation without adding a person we did. And we have pulled teams from competitions due to it, which definitely does not endear us to EP's because they lose money. This is our ethical stand. Other gyms crossover at will, whenever they can and stack teams. They make more teams to make their gym look bigger than it really is. But that is their ethical stand. Neither is legally wrong as there is no universal law on it. Only ethical positions and personal opinions.

 

[CheerDad18]

There is no rule against cross overs. Small gyms can not survive without them and neither can large gyms. People quit and people get injured it's that simple.

What people tend to be upset about is that their own team is not competitive and are looking to blame someone else. Instead of looking at their own athletes or gym. LIFE is not fair, not everyone deserves a MEDAL. People learn from losing and it will make you stronger or it will break you.

Does this sport needs some tougher rules, yes. Should athletes have ID's to make sure they are age appropriate for the team they are on, yes. If the sport wants to limit the number of teams or levels an athlete can be on, they need to pass them. Same thing with Summit Bids If you want to eliminate stacking pass a rule that states 80% of the team that won the bid must compete at the event.

Until that happens you play the game with the rules you are given.

Like I said in my previous post people hate stacking, but as long as the athlete is age appropriate, all you can do is suck it up butter cup and compete.

 

[cheermomforever]

My CP has always crossed over. This year it is 2, 5 teams. She personally would never cross to 2/3 level. Why? It would not challenge her and if she was in a 2 team with majority of upper level crossovers she would not feel proud she won and neither would I. I wonder why these coaches feel soo happy when they win level 2 with lvl 5 athletes?

 

[Labegg]

There is no rule against cross overs. Small gyms can not survive without them and neither can large gyms. People quit and people get injured it's that simple.
.

Nobody is talking about 1 or 2 crossovers because of injury or quitting.

And that is bull plan and simple that gyms can't survive without crossovers...

Also you are basically saying "Hey it's ok to do whatever it takes to win, even if it is wrong...as long as there is no rule against it you are golden".

Karma, Karma, Karma.

 

[cheerKT]

And that is bull plan and simple that gyms can't survive without crossovers...

It's really not. A lot of very small gyms rely on them.

But agree to disagree.

 

[oncecoolcoachnowmom]

The ID works to confirm their identity...but who is to say what "level" they must be? What is they are a bomb tumbler but can't dance or jump to save their life? What if new skills are gained in October or December or ? I'm not disagreeing with you...rather playing devils advocate. Because this is a team sport with different areas being judged...you are always going to have a mix of talents.

Trust me...watching the Level 5 team step back on to the mat as a Level 2 is crazy frustrating. But the lesson your child is learning is much better than the lesson the "win at all costs" sandbagging team members are learning. Real life doesn't allow sandbagging in most situations...that's going to be a wake up call for many kids down the road. But life also isn't "fair". Sometimes people get the job not because they were the "best" but because of some other factor like "name" (Yes, the business I was in this was common) We need to teach our kids these lessons so they are better able to cope moving forward. The "win by sandbagging" will not serve well growing up.

The "lock kids in at one level and only let them compete 1 level in either direction" idea is great in theory. I'd support it.

However, you bring up a lot of the concerns I have.

Example: Someone posted somewhere that they have a Level 5 kid who is now only tumbling at L2 due to a mental block. Under my suggested "lock kids in at one level at the beginning of the season" idea, what level is she now? Does she sit out for the rest of the season? Is she re-tagged as a Level 2 kid? Is there an exception made for her? Too many variables.

Thinking out loud so I don't have the answers either.

 

[Labegg]

CP is at a gym that is in the "SMALL Gym Category" and does not nor has it ever used cross overs.. Teams are built based on the majority of skills by the highest skill level and then 1 or 2 maybe 3 lower skilled athletes are on the team. Gym is competitive at most of its levels granted not all levels but most. Gym won bids to Summit etc. So don't tell me that its not possible. It is...

So yeah agree to disagree...

 

[cheerKT]

CP is at a gym that is in the "SMALL Gym Category" and does not nor has it ever used cross overs.. Teams are built based on the majority of skills by the highest skill level and then 1 or 2 maybe 3 lower skilled athletes are on the team. Gym is competitive at most of its levels granted not all levels but most. Gym won bids to Summit etc. So don't tell me that its not possible. It is...

So yeah agree to disagree...

Now I never said it wasn't possible. I said a lot of small gyms rely on them. Obviously yours doesn't and that's great, but everyone functions differently.

 

[CheerDad18]

There is no rule against cross overs. Small gyms can not survive without them and neither can large gyms. People quit and people get injured it's that simple.

What people tend to be upset about is that their own team is not competitive and are looking to blame someone else. Instead of looking at their own athletes or gym. LIFE is not fair, not everyone deserves a MEDAL. People learn from losing and it will make you stronger or it will break you.

Does this sport needs some tougher rules, yes. Should athletes have ID's to make sure they are age appropriate for the team they are on, yes. If the sport wants to limit the number of teams or levels an athlete can be on, they need to pass them. Same thing with Summit Bids If you want to eliminate stacking pass a rule that states 80% of the team that won the bid must compete at the event.

Until that happens you play the game with the rules you are given.

Like I said in my previous post people hate stacking, but as long as the athlete is age appropriate, all you can do is suck it up butter cup and compete.

Nobody is talking about 1 or 2 crossovers because of injury or quitting.

And that is bull plan and simple that gyms can't survive without crossovers...

Also you are basically saying "Hey it's ok to do whatever it takes to win, even if it is wrong...as long as there is no rule against it you are golden".

Karma, Karma, Karma.

No that's not what I am saying. I am a little older than most Parents here, I would guess, I was raised in a different era. Not everyone got a trophy. You competed with your friends, there wasn't an option to go somewhere else. Winning and loosing as a team builds character. The words loyalty meant something.

And yes small gyms do need double teamers. What happens a lot at least in the Gym we are at the Girls compete up not down. My CP's team small J3 team consists of 5 girls all youth age 12 jr age only 2 age out to seniors next year. Three of our girls compete also on a senior team or there would be no team. That senior team had one girl quit and one girl get injured so 2 more girls now double team.

Without double teamers Small Gyms would just fold up. They have to be able to field teams across all levels and ages or loose customers.

What I am saying is people today have a tough time looking at themselves and tend to put blame on someone else.

Do I have a problem with Stacking the answer is "yes".

Do I have a problem with cross overs "no".

My response to both suck it up butter cup and compete. Not everyone deserves a trophy, if you want it go out and earn it.

 

[Labegg]

Now I never said it wasn't possible. I said a lot of small gyms rely on them. Obviously yours doesn't and that's great, but everyone functions differently.

Lol you are right every gym works differently. Both your argument and mine are probably oversimplifications of the actual situation. Because clearly a small gym can be successful without crossovers and clearly some small gym feel the need to rely on crossovers. Guess I was getting riled up by CheerDad18's statement that small gyms cannot survive without crossovers maybe there just needs to be a change in the business model.

 

[Cheermom1969]

The "lock kids in at one level and only let them compete 1 level in either direction" idea is great in theory. I'd support it.

However, you bring up a lot of the concerns I have.

Example: Someone posted somewhere that they have a Level 5 kid who is now only tumbling at L2 due to a mental block. Under my suggested "lock kids in at one level at the beginning of the season" idea, what level is she now? Does she sit out for the rest of the season? Is she re-tagged as a Level 2 kid? Is there an exception made for her? Too many variables.

Thinking out loud so I don't have the answers either.

Lots of teams "hide" kids who don't have level appropriate tumbling, have an injury and can't tumble, or have tumbling blocks. That's easy enough to do. You don't automatically have to take a kid down levels to another team because of it.