All-Star D2 Summit Rule Changes

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Trust me I totally get it... but why not? Devil's advocate here--- why do things have to be fair? Why does everyone have to be a "winner" in a category with like teams/programs/schools? Is that a real life lesson? I mean I think that is what is so awesome about NCAA basketball, right? We all like it when the little guys triumph over the big guys. Is the playing field fair when it comes to getting a job? I mean, I truly understand, we all want to be able to say "we won", "we are the best" etc. But ultimately in this sport... that banner is all about bringing in the bucks (even just by keeping and gaining new athletes because of that "title")

ETA: I have no issue with D2 and having been at a small gym in a town that had a big program as well... I really do get it. That said... I think $ is the real reason behind all of this... at all levels.
For the most part I agree with you, but what's the difference between this and NCAA basketball's D2/D3 bracket national tournaments for the smaller schools?
I don't necessarily mind the D1/D2 split throughout the season, but I'm not sold one way or the other for Summit yet.
 
Trust me I totally get it... but why not? Devil's advocate here--- why do things have to be fair? Why does everyone have to be a "winner" in a category with like teams/programs/schools? Is that a real life lesson? I mean I think that is what is so awesome about NCAA basketball, right? We all like it when the little guys triumph over the big guys. Is the playing field fair when it comes to getting a job? I mean, I truly understand, we all want to be able to say "we won", "we are the best" etc. But ultimately in this sport... that banner is all about bringing in the bucks (even just by keeping and gaining new athletes because of that "title")

ETA: I have no issue with D2 and having been at a small gym in a town that had a big program as well... I really do get it. That said... I think $ is the real reason behind all of this... at all levels.
No we don't all have to win, but we should start with at least SOME chance of doing so. Even in NCAA, there is D2 and D3 for smaller schools. Where is the fun in competing at all if you KNOW going in that there is absolutely NO possibility of winning? Why not have elementary school track compete with high school? They don't all need to win. Why not have everyone regardless of education and experience evaluated by the same standards as the CEO to decide if they get a job or not? Because it isn't fair and sets them up to fail. Pitting tiny programs against powehouses sets them up to fail.
 
No we don't all have to win, but we should start with at least SOME chance of doing so. Even in NCAA, there is D2 and D3 for smaller schools. Where is the fun in competing at all if you KNOW going in that there is absolutely NO possibility of winning? Why not have elementary school track compete with high school? They don't all need to win. Why not have everyone regardless of education and experience evaluated by the same standards as the CEO to decide if they get a job or not? Because it isn't fair and sets them up to fail. Pitting tiny programs against powehouses sets them up to fail.
I disagree that it sets them up to "fail". It may be tougher... that win may be less likely...but fail?

Again, we spent many years in a true (only three teams and that was using crossovers) gym. I totally understand the difficulties and frustrations small gyms face. But when those girls beat the big guys (whether it be 1/2 or 4/5)... and they did (especially one year when they were just so loaded with heart and passion) the joy was like nothing else!

As a former athlete myself looking back and thinking what do I remember? I remember being a high school kid and our coach decided we should have a fun dual meet against one of the top colleges in the state. I remember getting up on the blocks and seeing the World Record holder in the lane next to me and knowing there was no way I could beat her but that I was going to give it everything I had because OMG I was in the lane next to THE.WORLD.RECORD.HOLDER! It's a memory and feeling that sticks with me way more than the first place finishes in my career.

I do not have an issue with there being 101 summits for every type of gym. It's a big "whatever" for me. But I do not think it is done with the athletes' best interests in mind... It is being done so the gyms can advertise "winner" (and grow as a result) and so the powers that be can rake in the money. (eta- I feel the same way about summit 1, 2 or 10,000. So many of these new "you are the ultimate universal galactic champion" comps are more about $ than anything else in my opinion)
 
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I disagree that it sets them up to "fail". It may be tougher... that win may be less likely...but fail?

Again, we spent many years in a true (only three teams and that was using crossovers) gym. I totally understand the difficulties and frustrations small gyms face. But when those girls beat the big guys (whether it be 1/2 or 4/5)... and they did (especially one year when they were just so loaded with heart and passion) the joy was like nothing else!

As a former athlete myself looking back and thinking what do I remember? I remember being a high school kid and our coach decided we should have a fun dual meet against one of the top colleges in the state. I remember getting up on the blocks and seeing the World Record holder in the lane next to me and knowing there was no way I could beat her but that I was going to give it everything I had because OMG I was in the lane next to THE.WORLD.RECORD.HOLDER! It's a memory and feeling that sticks with me way more than the first place finishes in my career.

I do not have an issue with their being 101 summits for every type of gym. It's a big "whatever" for me. But I do not think it is done with the athletes' best interests in mind... It is being done so the gyms can advertise "winner" (and grow as a result) and so the powers that be can rake in the money.

I do feel it sets them up to fail because aside from the rare day when mega gym has problems or a once in a blue moon special team, they aren't going to win, because they don't have the resources or talent, period. An occasional competition is fine, but when you are slaughtered every time even when your kids are hitting, it gets old really fast. Imagine if you had to run against that world record holder every meet. That would get old after a while, right? We feel the same way about the local big gym that places at summit every year in a certain division and beats everyone else at local comps by over 4 points. The come to anything handing out bids and slaughter everyone. There is no chance anyone will catch them unless they have multiple falls.
Bottom line, having to compete against the mega gyms all the time will be the death of small gyms. No one wants to be anywhere that never wins.

I do agree that it is money driven, but it always will be as long as someone profits from all star cheer.
 
I disagree that it sets them up to "fail". It may be tougher... that win may be less likely...but fail?

Again, we spent many years in a true (only three teams and that was using crossovers) gym. I totally understand the difficulties and frustrations small gyms face. But when those girls beat the big guys (whether it be 1/2 or 4/5)... and they did (especially one year when they were just so loaded with heart and passion) the joy was like nothing else!

As a former athlete myself looking back and thinking what do I remember? I remember being a high school kid and our coach decided we should have a fun dual meet against one of the top colleges in the state. I remember getting up on the blocks and seeing the World Record holder in the lane next to me and knowing there was no way I could beat her but that I was going to give it everything I had because OMG I was in the lane next to THE.WORLD.RECORD.HOLDER! It's a memory and feeling that sticks with me way more than the first place finishes in my career.

I do not have an issue with their being 101 summits for every type of gym. It's a big "whatever" for me. But I do not think it is done with the athletes' best interests in mind... It is being done so the gyms can advertise "winner" (and grow as a result) and so the powers that be can rake in the money. (eta- I feel the same way about summit 1, 2 or 10,000. So many of these new "you are the ultimate universal galactic champion" comps are more about $ than anything else in my opinion)
I agree that all the "finals" are profit driven, and I HATE that all the major comps are so expensive, especially for the west coast. I see no reason for their not to be regional D2 championships. But I also see that while division splits do not necessarily benefit the athletes in terms of them needing to win, they do benefit the longevity of the small gym, which in turn benefits small town kids by keeping cheer accessible to them. Cheer is already a very have and have not industry, which robs a lot of kids of the experience. Though, I can also see how having to travel long distances to compete at expensive places has a similar effect.
 
Does anyone know if these smaller locations can pull from their larger locations athletes if an athlete gets injured or they need crossovers at the Summit? I don't know why I thought that was a no-no in the past but, if they can, then they really shouldn't have any issues.

To state Varsity created D2 solely for money equates to saying HS sports created divisions solely for money. Divisions were established because of differing population pools, budgets, facilities, quality staff, etc. Varsity already had extremely high interest in the Summit so, they could have just as easily given out more bids and said Youth will take place in Tampa and Junior, Senior at Disney. Chuckling because us parents say, "it is all about the $$$" in some threads, and in others, complain about "not enough bids," "how much harder it is to get a Summit bid versus World's," and "Varsity needs to give out more bids." ;)
 
Does anyone know if these smaller locations can pull from their larger locations athletes if an athlete gets injured or they need crossovers at the Summit? I don't know why I thought that was a no-no in the past but, if they can, then they really shouldn't have any issues.

To state Varsity created D2 solely for money equates to saying HS sports created divisions solely for money. Divisions were established because of differing population pools, budgets, facilities, quality staff, etc. Varsity already had extremely high interest in the Summit so, they could have just as easily given out more bids and said Youth will take place in Tampa and Junior, Senior at Disney. Chuckling because us parents say, "it is all about the $$$" in some threads, and in others, complain about "not enough bids," "how much harder it is to get a Summit bid versus World's," and "Varsity needs to give out more bids." ;)

From memory, I don't think there are any rules dictating where the children on Summit teams come from. As long as they aren't on a team competing at "D1"...maybe even then...
 
My opinion is if the locations in total are smaller than 125, then they can compete D2.

Eg- Location A has 50, Location B has 50. D2.
Location A has 120, Location B has 20. D1.
 
I disagree that it sets them up to "fail". It may be tougher... that win may be less likely...but fail?

Again, we spent many years in a true (only three teams and that was using crossovers) gym. I totally understand the difficulties and frustrations small gyms face. But when those girls beat the big guys (whether it be 1/2 or 4/5)... and they did (especially one year when they were just so loaded with heart and passion) the joy was like nothing else!

As a former athlete myself looking back and thinking what do I remember? I remember being a high school kid and our coach decided we should have a fun dual meet against one of the top colleges in the state. I remember getting up on the blocks and seeing the World Record holder in the lane next to me and knowing there was no way I could beat her but that I was going to give it everything I had because OMG I was in the lane next to THE.WORLD.RECORD.HOLDER! It's a memory and feeling that sticks with me way more than the first place finishes in my career.

I do not have an issue with their being 101 summits for every type of gym. It's a big "whatever" for me. But I do not think it is done with the athletes' best interests in mind... It is being done so the gyms can advertise "winner" (and grow as a result) and so the powers that be can rake in the money. (eta- I feel the same way about summit 1, 2 or 10,000. So many of these new "you are the ultimate universal galactic champion" comps are more about $ than anything else in my opinion)

Let me ask you this, how many D2 sized gyms won D1 summit before the split?
 
I think about Worlds for example.

We do not have D1 and D2 Worlds and there are small gyms who do quite well. (Ex: Vizion, Florida Top Dog, etc.)

Are they all winning? No, but cracking top 10 is cool when you're not a Cheer Athletics/CEA/etc.
 
...Although I do think that a D2 World$ is coming down the pipe in the wake of D2 $ummit (in the next 3-5 years.)

Because why have one bid event when you can have two of them?

I don't really see d2 worlds happening honestly. If it did exist I don't really see it being a really intense competition, I think you'd see a lot of prelim type scary teams there and that's it.
 
Let me ask you this, how many D2 sized gyms won D1 summit before the split?
I have no clue. But what I think you're getting at is that "winning" is important and the playing table needs to be evened out. Like I said...I get it...was a member of small gym for years...but I disagree. I think when athletes look back the going up against the best of the best and performing amazing will hold more memories than winning against a less than complete playing field. That's just my feelings as a former athlete. I grew up in a different era though and I'm speaking in hindsight as well. At the moment I may have felt differently.
 
I have no clue. But what I think you're getting at is that "winning" is important and the playing table needs to be evened out. Like I said...I get it...was a member of small gym for years...but I disagree. I think when athletes look back the going up against the best of the best and performing amazing will hold more memories than winning against a less than complete playing field. That's just my feelings as a former athlete. I grew up in a different era though and I'm speaking in hindsight as well. At the moment I may have felt differently.
I get what you are saying, and it think when it happens occasionally, going up against the giant is a good thing, but I think being continually beaten down at every competition by mega gyms you have NO HOPE of being competitive against is detrimental in the long run because it steals a kid's joy for the sport. Did you compete against giants every time you took the mat, knowing there was NO HOPE of a win? I cannot imagine anyone remembering that situation fondly. Would you be motivated at work if the system in place meant you had no hope of ever being rewarded for all the hard work you put in? The reality for most small gyms in that they don't "perform amazing" against big gym, they lose, badly, over and over again because they don't have the ability to stack a level 2 team with level 4 athletes or even to put ONLY athletes that max out the level on the floor. They cannot afford big name choreographers and guest coaches. They don't have a huge pool of athletes to choose from and the ability to take only the best 20, 32, 0r 36 to make a team. They cannot afford to tell a kid they aren't good enough for a full season team, or place them 2 levels below their skill set and have them just be happy to be wearing the gym's colors like big gyms can. They have to work with what they have. All I am saying is that Davids should be competing against other Davids, not Goliath. If they want to take on Goliath for an end of season title, so be it, but it shouldn't be every competition all the time. Taking away D2 puts a lot of small gyms in that situation. They have to take on Goliath every time they take the mat, and I don't think it should be that way. It isn't in any other sport. Baseball, softball, track, soccer, football all have D2 and even D3 to create a level playing field for smaller schools. They recognize that there is no hope of those schools being competitive in D1 and to try to do so would likely meant the death of their programs. Why should cheer leading not do the same?
 
I get what you are saying, and it think when it happens occasionally, going up against the giant is a good thing, but I think being continually beaten down at every competition by mega gyms you have NO HOPE of being competitive against is detrimental in the long run because it steals a kid's joy for the sport. Did you compete against giants every time you took the mat, knowing there was NO HOPE of a win? I cannot imagine anyone remembering that situation fondly. Would you be motivated at work if the system in place meant you had no hope of ever being rewarded for all the hard work you put in? The reality for most small gyms in that they don't "perform amazing" against big gym, they lose, badly, over and over again because they don't have the ability to stack a level 2 team with level 4 athletes or even to put ONLY athletes that max out the level on the floor. They cannot afford big name choreographers and guest coaches. They don't have a huge pool of athletes to choose from and the ability to take only the best 20, 32, 0r 36 to make a team. They cannot afford to tell a kid they aren't good enough for a full season team, or place them 2 levels below their skill set and have them just be happy to be wearing the gym's colors like big gyms can. They have to work with what they have. All I am saying is that Davids should be competing against other Davids, not Goliath. If they want to take on Goliath for an end of season title, so be it, but it shouldn't be every competition all the time. Taking away D2 puts a lot of small gyms in that situation. They have to take on Goliath every time they take the mat, and I don't think it should be that way. It isn't in any other sport. Baseball, softball, track, soccer, football all have D2 and even D3 to create a level playing field for smaller schools. They recognize that there is no hope of those schools being competitive in D1 and to try to do so would likely meant the death of their programs. Why should cheer leading not do the same?
But are you competing against Goliath every time? When my daughter was at small gym for many years she competed a lot of local and even some further away comps against similar "David" programs, and then there were always a couple of competitions each year where they met up with Goliath. I would just think this end of the year "ultimate destination" "climb" competition would want to be one of those up against everyone types. As far as the stacking and sandbagging... don't even get me started. I am hoping the new rules do away with that but it seems there's always some loophole they will find.
 

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