All-Star Division I And Division Ii At Worlds - Big Gym Separation

[Mclovin]

I have said it for years and I will say it again...if splitting schools into divisions based on size is what works for them...it should work for our industry, too. Say it all you want but a Division 2A football team is not going to be able to beat a Division 6A football team. The numbers just aren't there...

All stars should be no different. The only concern I see in this is gyms purposely holding their numbers back just so they can be more competitive in a smaller division. That would be the biggest issue I can think of.

OR

I've also said this for years....keep things as they are but require large gyms to compete in the large division, medium sized gyms in the medium division and small gyms in the small division. Doing it this way would at least ensure large senior and large coed to have more depth.

 

[Deleted member 15]

I've also said this for years....keep things as they are but require large gyms to compete in the large division, medium sized gyms in the medium division and small gyms in the small division. Doing it this way would at least ensure large senior and large coed to have more depth.

I've said this part many times too.

 

[Boo21]

Everyone and every team can't be a winner. If this division split happened the prestige of Worlds would be greatly diminished. This is not college. Think of gymnastics at the club level. It is not split into divisions based on size. It is the best of the best making it to nationals and winning one title.


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[BlueCat]

Out of curiosity, how would you divide gyms in way that couldn't be easily exploited by the mega-programs?

 

[xpressjag]

Out of curiosity, how would you divide gyms in way that couldn't be easily exploited by the mega-programs?

There will always be a loophole for larger gyms to compete in new divisions/programs to help smaller gyms. Just something that I have noticed.

 

[Mclovin]

Everyone and every team can't be a winner. If this division split happened the prestige of Worlds would be greatly diminished. This is not college. Think of gymnastics at the club level. It is not split into divisions based on size. It is the best of the best making it to nationals and winning one title.


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Gymnastics is an individual sport. Any INDIVIDUAL can excel regardless of the size of their program.

 

[Mclovin]

Out of curiosity, how would you divide gyms in way that couldn't be easily exploited by the mega-programs?

In Oklahoma, our high schools are split by size. The biggest division is 6A. One of the largest schools in our state has over 4,000 kids in it. The school I work at has a little over 2,000. We are both 6A. Basically the state takes the top so many schools (let's say 20 for arguments sake) and puts them at 6A. Then the next 20 biggest schools are 5A. And so on and so on.

All stars could be divided up in a very similar way. Every year the size of a program would have to be reevaluated and divisions would change year to year based on who the top "20" biggest programs are. No crossing athletes from one location to another. Just like school, if you move after tryouts you would be ineligible to compete that year anywhere else.

In my mind, this works. Would it be the end all problem solver? Probably not. But at least gyms would know they are competing against other gyms with similar demographics. Will some gyms cheat and fudge their numbers? Of course. But that happens in all sports and we just have to hope the powers that be do the best they can to prevent it.

 

[tumbleyoda]

I've also said this for years....keep things as they are but require large gyms to compete in the large division, medium sized gyms in the medium division and small gyms in the small division. Doing it this way would at least ensure large senior and large coed to have more depth.

The problem I see with this is that you have large gyms claiming large on one hand, then medium or small on the other hand. The whole well this location is large but that one isn't, yet athletes cross between both freely. That beast is has yet to be tamed. Fix the crossover issue and this could work very well.

My answer is if you refuse to split D1 and D2 then allow regular/standard 5 to compete at other events with an end of year award (like US Finals, All Star Games, etc.) or let EP's have a Standard Level 5 Non World's Bid division. Currently once you go standard 5 you are "assumed" to be in the World's division, whether or not you want it or not. You have to tell the EP you don't want to be considered for a bid regardless of how well you place, which in my experience is not often a pleasant convo with the EP. ...What do you mean you don't want a bid???? This will also allow some gyms to potentially keep their athletes even if they are not maxing out at Level 5 because they now have competitive options for their 5 full, 2 double full team that they don't realistically have in the Worlds division.

Now I feel this will not happen because I have said numerous times, they need new gyms to keep feeding the drive and push for Worlds to make up for those that have willingly dropped out of that race. They can't get new gyms if they have another competitive option for those level teams. In their minds they must be the only option. Which is why when Final Destination was bought and rebranded as US Finals, they were originally offering bids to Standard 5 teams. That got shut down real quick by the powers that be but not before some teams got bids and had to be told they would not be honored for US Finals.

***I say this as only one cheer gym I have worked for has really truly cared about going to Worlds. The others didn't or felt they had no other option to keep their true level 5 athletes but to go into that division. Otherwise they would lose them to other gyms that had level 5 World's teams***

 

[stuntjumptumble]

I'll always be against this. There's entirely too many divisions in cheer and I just don't think it would work


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[ryann3794]

I'm against the split. Vizion all stars is only a 4 year old gym, they had 4 teams this season and their first worlds team and managed to go on a full paid bid AND made it to finals as a "small" gym. Talent is possible in a small gym.


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[jcheermom]

I'm against the split. Vizion all stars is only a 4 year old gym, they had 4 teams this season and their first worlds team and managed to go on a full paid bid AND made it to finals as a "small" gym. Talent is possible in a small gym.


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So correct me if I'm wrong: with what you just said, with a split, your gym/team would still be very competitive if you were split into the small program because you faired well this year with your first World's team as you earned a paid bid this year and did well enough to make it to finals. I'd consider this to be a successful premiere at Worlds. Congrats, by the way, I'm impressed!


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[tumbleyoda]

There is a major difference in being a new gym with completely new athletes you train from from the ground up that come in with zero skills. and a new gym that has pulled already experienced and trained athletes from surrounding gyms or is a result of a split/closure from an already established and successful gym. Two different things IMO.

 

[Mclovin]

I'm against the split. Vizion all stars is only a 4 year old gym, they had 4 teams this season and their first worlds team and managed to go on a full paid bid AND made it to finals as a "small" gym. Talent is possible in a small gym.


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Out of curiosity, what part of the country is Vizion in? Rural? Large metropolis? Rich in all things cheer? Does your state allow high school kids to do all star? Are there other sports in your area that are more popular than cheer? Just because you have successfully gotten a full paid bid in only 4 years doesn't really mean anything. What competition did you guys land that bid? I'm guessing it wasn't at a comp where you had 20+ worlds teams from larger gyms attending. Not trying to be argumentative. Just trying to figure out if your part of the country is as "deep" as others in all stars. You might feel differently if you were in an area very rich in cheer and had mega gyms constantly beating you out for those full paids...OR you might be in one of those areas and are just the exception to the norm.

 

[njallday]

All stars could be divided up in a very similar way. Every year the size of a program would have to be reevaluated and divisions would change year to year based on who the top "20" biggest programs are. No crossing athletes from one location to another. Just like school, if you move after tryouts you would be ineligible to compete that year anywhere else.

shortened your post for space. i'm not really for this idea, as i think there are enough splits already but your post is an interesting idea. so for those top 20 gyms that would have to compete against each other, what if their teams are in different divisions? or does this require they all be large senior? or does team size or coed/all girl makeup not matter and they just compete against one another anyway? would you want this applied across the board, levels 1-6, or are we only talking worlds, here? if 1-6, again how would the different divisions work?

The reason i am not for this is because of the smaller gyms slowly rising to the top of the rankings in recent years. Gyms like MACs, GBE, South Elite, LACF, Cheer Eclipse, Pro Cheer, Cheers and More, HotCheer, Vizion, All Star Revolution, etc are all smaller gyms who made top 10 or higher this year alone and are encroaching upon the podiums, taking spots from "big gyms."

does location, population, wealth of the surrounding areas, school rules, etc all factor into a gym's success? probably. but at the same time most of the big names are reaching or have already surpassed their 20th season. these new gyms haven't been around as long and they'll get there, IMO.

 

[ryann3794]

Out of curiosity, what part of the country is Vizion in? Rural? Large metropolis? Rich in all things cheer? Does your state allow high school kids to do all star? Are there other sports in your area that are more popular than cheer? Just because you have successfully gotten a full paid bid in only 4 years doesn't really mean anything. What competition did you guys land that bid? I'm guessing it wasn't at a comp where you had 20+ worlds teams from larger gyms attending. Not trying to be argumentative. Just trying to figure out if your part of the country is as "deep" as others in all stars. You might feel differently if you were in an area very rich in cheer and had mega gyms constantly beating you out for those full paids...OR you might be in one of those areas and are just the exception to the norm.

vizion is in Michigan but goes to very few in state competitions, they got their bid at cheer power and competed against a good amount of worlds teams, they were NOT just handed that bid. Yet worked EXTREMLY hard for it. My main point was they ended up in finals so it doesn't really matter where they're from, who they competed against, Etc because they competed against all the big names at worlds.



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