All-Star Is It The Judges Fault That There Is No Change At The Top

[BlueCat]

I am sorry that this thread is turning into I should have won and your team shouldn't, this was not my intention.

I wanted to know people's opinions about the judges and the role they play in causing a bottleneck at the top....

I think it's time to lock this forum. Sorry it took this route.

I would be surprised if many people agreed that judge bias is a significant factor in determining which gyms are typically successful.

 

[Mclovin]

well a tumbling bust and a pyramid issue from smoke isn't particularly clean. Lightning had difficulty AND executed it.

I think what you're calling "executed" is the fact that they hit. What the scoresheet calls "execution" is HOW it LOOKED when it hit.

I would be surprised if many people agreed that judge bias is a significant factor in determining which gyms are typically successful.

I post this as a parent of an athlete that lost to a team that fell both days at worlds. I still do NOT believe it was because the judges were biased. I do, however, believe it was because there's too much subjectivity in how a routine can be scored from the current scoresheets.

 

[BlueCat]

I post this as a parent of an athlete that lost to a team that fell both days at worlds. I still do NOT believe it was because the judges were biased. I do, however, believe it was because there's too much subjectivity in how a routine can be scored from the current scoresheets.

We have often thought that judges got it wrong. Many times, after reviewing video extensively, we learn why the judges may have been right and we were wrong. Sometimes, we still believe the judges got it wrong even after studying it extensively. We HAVE learned that it is very difficult to objectively compare one of your own routines to someone else.

There is an immense amount of subjectivity built into the current systems. I think that some subjectivity is necessary - we don't want cookie-cutter performances out there. However, I think that measuring of difficulty needs a massive overhaul.

 

[Mclovin]

We have often thought that judges got it wrong. Many times, after reviewing video extensively, we learn why the judges may have been right and we were wrong. Sometimes, we still believe the judges got it wrong even after studying it extensively. We HAVE learned that it is very difficult to objectively compare one of your own routines to someone else.

There is an immense amount of subjectivity built into the current systems. I think that some subjectivity is necessary - we don't want cookie-cutter performances out there. However, I think that measuring of difficulty needs a massive overhaul.

Agreed on having a hard time being objective when comparing our routine to someone elses! lol I always think we're better! ha

I do agree that SOME subjectivity is necessary. I just wish that both the execution and difficulty sections of the scoresheet were a little more specific. Leave the subjectivity to the overall impression/choreography part of the scoresheet.

 

[megaroo714]

i under stand where your coming from and what your thinking because i once though that the judges only scored the "big name" teams high and didnt really care about any other team .. but after thinking about it those big name gyms were once not big name gyms. you dont just automatically become a big name gym you have to work for it and earn your spot on top .. you have to be able to out tumble,stunt,jump,and be tighter then all the over teams and that takes a lot of time and effort.. My coach is a shooting star alumni and she has never won worlds .. i believe she graduated in 1996 and i might be wrong but i think the first time they won worlds was in 2007 right ? well either way they had to work for what they wanted and eventually got it .. not so big named gyms will have there time eventually and then they will be on the "big name" list

 

[buffyyy]

Lightning beat them day 2 so why does it even matter?

It's still sketchy.

 

[Mclovin]

i under stand where your coming from and what your thinking because i once though that the judges only scored the "big name" teams high and didnt really care about any other team .. but after thinking about it those big name gyms were once not big name gyms. you dont just automatically become a big name gym you have to work for it and earn your spot on top .. you have to be able to out tumble,stunt,jump,and be tighter then all the over teams and that takes a lot of time and effort.. My coach is a shooting star alumni and she has never won worlds .. i believe she graduated in 1996 and i might be wrong but i think the first time they won worlds was in 2007 right ? well either way they had to work for what they wanted and eventually got it .. not so big named gyms will have there time eventually and then they will be on the "big name" list

Every year at our banquet our owner Orson tells the story of how T&S started out. Their very first competition they attended was NCA nationals. They placed 53rd out of 55 teams. That was 1996/97. We have medaled at worlds every year for the past 5 years. It takes time to build your program and to figure out how to master that scoresheet. I bet 15 years ago Orson never dreamed he'd be a world champion coach as he was a "no name" gym owner.

 

[slapclapdip]

To me the problem has some to do with the scoresheet being so subjective. Of the 300 possible points, 175 points are subjectivity points. Thats almost 59% of the scoresheet.

 

[megaroo714]

Every year at our banquet our owner Orson tells the story of how T&S started out. Their very first competition they attended was NCA nationals. They placed 53rd out of 55 teams. That was 1996/97. We have medaled at worlds every year for the past 5 years. It takes time to build your program and to figure out how to master that scoresheet. I bet 15 years ago Orson never dreamed he'd be a world champion coach as he was a "no name" gym owner.

exactly my point you worked for what you wanted and you got it !

 

[GreatWhite92]

Someone should look at the scoresheets before they post. Execution is its own category on both the Varsity scoresheet and the Worlds ones.

Here is a real life comparison....... So I was told that difficulty would be established by the judges based on thier view of execution I.E. - teams that are deemed with strong execution will be awarded high difficulty scores regardless of the skill performed.

I was commenting on the fact that some competitions do this as seen from the comment above. I know it is not that way at worlds but why on earth is it ok for other competitions to do that.

 

[glitterdiva]

I sat in the milk house and watched all day both days. The teams that placed top three for a reason and the reason is TECHNIQUE. There were teams that threw harder stuff but it was not that clean. I don't know how or when but people need to start thinking about that part of the score sheet instead of difficulty. I made that switch this season and its made a huge difference in my placements.

So just an idea to think about but orange has one basically every year but last year. Is their routine easier but flawless or harder with just a tiny bit of timing issues?

 

[Cheerfan1234]

We have often thought that judges got it wrong. Many times, after reviewing video extensively, we learn why the judges may have been right and we were wrong. Sometimes, we still believe the judges got it wrong even after studying it extensively. We HAVE learned that it is very difficult to objectively compare one of your own routines to someone else.

There is an immense amount of subjectivity built into the current systems. I think that some subjectivity is necessary - we don't want cookie-cutter performances out there. However, I think that measuring of difficulty needs a massive overhaul.

I agree...while coaches don't want cookie cutter routines, we do want to be rewarded for for utilizing the majority of our level 5 athletes in building skills. For instance, several small senior level 5 teams (some placing in the top ten) had 4 basket groups instead of 5 and/or 4 elite stunt sequence groups instead of 5. I can unserstand how they might outscore a team with 5 tosses and 5 elite stunt groups in EXECUTION, but they should not outscore these teams in difficulty. Unfortunately, this is happening. If the rules weren't so gray, then why wouldn't EVERY coach just choreograph 5 or 6 straight up stunts that come down to sponge/squish and then do another bangin' elite sequence with 4 groups? This formula seems to hit the Worlds scoresheet well.

 

[xpressjag]

Has anyone ever thought of HOW the skills are being executed. Yes it falls under difficulty and execution. I saw many teams, including those in the top 3 at worlds doing under rotated fulls and doubles, and their coach wants to get the difficulty. Personally, I don't think you should get the difficulty for a double full that isn't completed, because you didn't complete it. Same as double downs and full ups. The same can go to switch ups and ball ups, if you don't switch/ball up at the top, then its hard to distinguish what the skill is actually supposed to look like. My point being, if you don't display the skill correctly, then a judge doesn't know what it's supposed to be.

 

[CoachMandiCF]

I sat in the milk house and watched all day both days. The teams that placed top three for a reason and the reason is TECHNIQUE. There were teams that threw harder stuff but it was not that clean. I don't know how or when but people need to start thinking about that part of the score sheet instead of difficulty. I made that switch this season and its made a huge difference in my placements.

So just an idea to think about but orange has one basically every year but last year. Is their routine easier but flawless or harder with just a tiny bit of timing issues?

I have made that switch this year with amazing results! Execution scores went way up instead of just difficulty.

 

[ztaprincess]

I was commenting on the fact that some competitions do this as seen from the comment above. I know it is not that way at worlds but why on earth is it ok for other competitions to do that.

Because each competition gets to make their own scoresheets. That is why some gyms don't go to certain competitions, they don't like the scoresheet whereas other gyms go to competitions specifically because they like the scoresheet. Until there is a universial one that all comps have to have then there will continue to be ones that are vastly different from the one at worlds.