All-Star Only Seniors Can Expose Midriff???

[cheercurl]

Point taken.

What I will say, though, is that I don't think this rule can be managed via "deductions" or a vague policy. Because then every EP's going to have a different standard and leave things open to interpretation (sometimes between events run by the same producer) and then you'll have chaos. It'd be far more likely that some team would get penalized at a major competition for uniforms they wore all year.

If it's going to be a rule, it needs to be a rule that has clear guidelines on what constitutes a legal uniform, and a consistent, across-the-board penalty if you violate those rules. The USASF is the only logical governing body that can come up with a rule and then at least have a prayer of ensuring it's enforced.

Now does that mean that EP's can still get the interpretation of the rule wrong? Of course, they can, and they very well might. And we can argue whether the rules they came up with are too restrictive. But I support the concept.

It would be a gyms obligation to make sure their uniform met the requirements of ALL Brands. There is no way a gym is going to risk getting a uniform deduction from any brand. If they take the risk...then they deserve the deduction.

I want to make it clear that I prefer crop tops but this is not a make or break it kind of thing for me. The gym that we are at exclusively has long tops and always has. I am ok with that.

I am just not for creating a blanket mandate for a small sector of people who don't understand the words revealing or inappropriate. I really think most gym owners are a very intelligent group that could come to a reasonable consensus of whats appropriate all on their own. If a gym was unable to do that...their first BIG uniform deduction would have them scrambling to comply and I would have very little sympathy for them.

In the above scenario only the umm unintelligent who could not figure what's appropriate would reap the consequences instead of an entire nation of gyms. Can you see the logic in that?

 

[Coach Troy]

YES ..YES.. YES!!!!!!

 

[cheercurl]

It would force everyone to be conservative or risk a penalty. The way it is written now will just make everyone get a little more creative. Right now I am actually loving the one piece GK's but don't be surprised when GK or an independent brand starts putting out uniforms with sheer nude bellies. Heck , Top Gun is going to have a field day with this, just think of the possibilities. They could have a sheer nude back with two shells in front. LOL Sorry Top Gun....you know you guys are thinking about all the possibilities.

 

[newcheerdad]

It would be a gyms obligation to make sure their uniform met the requirements of ALL Brands. There is no way a gym is going to risk getting a uniform deduction from any brand. If they take the risk...then they deserve the deduction.

I want to make it clear that I prefer crop tops but this is not a make or break it kind of thing for me. The gym that we are at exclusively has long tops and always has. I am ok with that.

I am just not for creating a blanket mandate for a small sector of people who don't understand the words revealing or inappropriate. I really think most gym owners are a very intelligent group that could come to a reasonable consensus of whats appropriate all on their own. If a gym was unable to do that...their first BIG uniform deduction would have them scrambling to comply and I would have very little sympathy for them.

In the above scenario only the umm unintelligent who could not figure what's appropriate would reap the consequences instead of an entire nation of gyms. Can you see the logic in that?

I see where you're coming from, but there are several real-world problems with your idea:

1. Define for me what is "revealing" or "inappropriate". What may be inappropriate to event producer X may be perfectly fine for event producer Y. People have different tastes, and different parts of the country have different standards for decorum. The USASF uniform rules create a standard for design that can inform the decisions of gym owners and apparel manufacturers when coming up with concepts for now and the future. There isn't "grey area" or "room for intepretation".

2. So even if we pursued the idea of event producers deciding what is an acceptable uniform - how would you go about securing the approval of event producers that your uniform is acceptable? Are you going to submit your design to each event producer at the beginning of each season to make sure it passes muster? Is the decision made at each competition? What if you decide to add a competition and that EP nixes the design? You can perhaps put the onus on the uniform company to submit their designs to producers ahead of time, but wouldn't it make more sense for them to have one standard to adhere too, and then work within that standard? Ideally, the USASF can certify a uniform as "legal", and then at that point there's no debate.

3. If you think that the meme that "EP's play favorites" exists now, leave it up to them to decide what's an appropriate uniform. If there are two similar uniforms and the EP says that one is appropriate and another isn't, then you're going to have all sorts of accusations that the company is letting one gym get away with things because of their name/size/relationship. A defined standard means that an EP has to allow a uniform to be worn in a competition.

4. Without a universal scoresheet, you can't just go with a rule saying that a uniform violation is simply a "severe deduction". Again, that's open to all sorts of interpretation. Is a uniform violation equivalent to, say, a tumbling bust? A stunt fall? A safety violation? If there was a universal scoresheet you could say that a uniform violation results in "x" penalty, but leaving it up to the EP's in our current environment doesn't work. To me, a legal uniform should be as much as a requirement as being the appropriate age for the team you're on - either you meet the criteria or you don't. No grey area.

5. You expressed a concern about gyms being "creative" when it comes to these standard - I think the idea that gyms and/or uniform companies can be creative is a good thing. If they expose loopholes within these rules that can be exploited, then guess what? You go back and address them in the rules you've created.

With all due respect, there is nothing in your argument that I see that suggest that a USASF rule regarding uniforms is a bad thing. There are recent USASF edicts, specifically with respect to tumbling, that I found questionable. But a rule about uniforms is just common sense.

 

[mollymags]

so i dont really feel like going through 25pages of comments to see if this has been mentioned, but what about crossovers from youth and jr teams on to sr teams are they now supposed to buy two uniforms, and if they are how does that help this image rule, because now the image in my mind is upset parents complaining of high cost!

Get rid of crossovers or get your whole gym full tops. There's no rule that Seniors HAVE to wear crop tops. Plus, there are plenty of gyms that have different uniforms for almost every team and kids that cross... those kids need two uniforms. I've heard this argument several times and I can't help but roll my eyes whenever it comes up.

 

[mollymags]

i do not like this rule at all, and how are they going to enforce it?? it's going to be nearly impossible to enforce this. this is a good rule to have for tinys, minis and maybe youth girls, but not for junior girls. once you get up to the higher level tumbling, full tops can be restricting. and those 2 minutes and 30 seconds are alot of work, not to mention the 20-30 minutes back in warmups and it can get really hot in those full tops.

I think I said something about this in this thread already, but most boys compete in a full top with no cut outs and pants. They seem to tumble and make it through their routine just fine?

 

[newcheerdad]

Get rid of crossovers or get your whole gym full tops. There's no rule that Seniors HAVE to wear crop tops. Plus, there are plenty of gyms that have different uniforms for almost every team and kids that cross... those kids need two uniforms. I've heard this argument several times and I can't help but roll my eyes whenever it comes up.

Yep. Our gym has a few kids that crossover from juniors to our senior 5, and they will be required to purchase two tops. It's part of the cost of choosing to be on multiple teams, along with the additional comp fees, etc.

 

[eri-bear]

If you are on a senior team or a level 5 team then you can wear a half top but it needs to be covered up with a shirt or jacket unless you are on your way to the practice room

 

[cheercurl]

I see where you're coming from, but there are several real-world problems with your idea:

1. Define for me what is "revealing" or "inappropriate". What may be inappropriate to event producer X may be perfectly fine for event producer Y. People have different tastes, and different parts of the country have different standards for decorum. The USASF uniform rules create a standard for design that can inform the decisions of gym owners and apparel manufacturers when coming up with concepts for now and the future. There isn't "grey area" or "room for intepretation".
Better take into consideration event producer X in NJ and event producer Y in the bible belt because you never know which one is going to call you out. So guess what? Be conservative and thoughtful about your uniform choice. Gym owners are intelligent and the message would be clear...don't take chances because it will be costly. I would like to see a gym owner have to say to his parents oops we need to replace your $300 uni's because we didn't comply. If they find this out at the 1st comp...3rd or last comp. I have no sympathy. Cater to the lowest denominator in this case the most conservative, state, city or judge. I see no reason to give inches, sizes or length. Common sense will dictate appropriateness. If they have no common sense they need to find someone who does. If that uniform makes it to the floor they will still have to comply eventually.
2. So even if we pursued the idea of event producers deciding what is an acceptable uniform - how would you go about securing the approval of event producers that your uniform is acceptable? Are you going to submit your design to each event producer at the beginning of each season to make sure it passes muster? Is the decision made at each competition? What if you decide to add a competition and that EP nixes the design? You can perhaps put the onus on the uniform company to submit their designs to producers ahead of time, but wouldn't it make more sense for them to have one standard to adhere too, and then work within that standard? Ideally, the USASF can certify a uniform as "legal", and then at that point there's no debate. We can let them decide, in fact we can let Varsity choose...or in fact we could make GK illegal or we can let them dictate that only jumpsuits that cover from head to toe are appropriate. My point is: because this is your "IDEAL" or USASF's doesn't make it mine or Joe Schmoe who likes his very appropriate crop tops that he feels represents his program so well.

3. If you think that the meme that "EP's play favorites" exists now, leave it up to them to decide what's an appropriate uniform. If there are two similar uniforms and the EP says that one is appropriate and another isn't, then you're going to have all sorts of accusations that the company is letting one gym get away with things because of their name/size/relationship. A defined standard means that an EP has to allow a uniform to be worn in a competition. Big programs carry more weight and that weight will always make them louder then a little gym. Not sure why this is specific to a uniform rule? this is like the song that never ends...it just is.

4. Without a universal scoresheet, you can't just go with a rule saying that a uniform violation is simply a "severe deduction". Again, that's open to all sorts of interpretation. Is a uniform violation equivalent to, say, a tumbling bust? A stunt fall? A safety violation? If there was a universal scoresheet you could say that a uniform violation results in "x" penalty, but leaving it up to the EP's in our current environment doesn't work. To me, a legal uniform should be as much as a requirement as being the appropriate age for the team you're on - either you meet the criteria or you don't. No grey area. OK the consequence for having an inappropriate uniform is disqualification and you may not compete again until you comply. Are you going to send your kids out in Top Gun tube tops and hope no one calls you on it? Is that not enough of a deterrent? I sure as hell am going to make sure that there is absolutely no question that my uniform is conservative enough to be deemed appropriate.

5. You expressed a concern about gyms being "creative" when it comes to these standard - I think the idea that gyms and/or uniform companies can be creative is a good thing. If they expose loopholes within these rules that can be exploited, then guess what? You go back and address them in the rules you've created. I agree creativity is awesome and we have seen some fabulous new designs come out. LOVE IT! BUT>>> Exploiting loop holes won't be a maybe it will be a given. Then another sweeping mandate comes out and we all have to scramble to comply to no more nude mesh or whatever else they come up with. Keep in mind that yet again 95% of the gyms kept it tasteful but now must buy new uniforms because those same gyms made poor choices...Dang Varsity and GK must love the USASF.

With all due respect, there is nothing in your argument that I see that suggest that a USASF rule regarding uniforms is a bad thing. There are recent USASF edicts, specifically with respect to tumbling, that I found questionable. But a rule about uniforms is just common sense.

With all due respect seeing things only from one narrow view can be a tragic flaw. I can understand why they felt they needed to regulate....I just don't happen to agree they went about it in a way that admonishes the right people. Please see my response to your points in green.

 

[newcheerdad]

With all due respect seeing things only from one narrow view can be a tragic flaw. I can understand why they felt they needed to regulate....I just don't happen to agree they went about it in a way that admonishes the right people. Please see my response to your points in green.

I read your responses.

You didn't answer question #1 at all - how do you define revealing or inappropriate? Saying that you should be "thoughtful and conservative" about your uniform choice doesn't really give me any guidance as to what would constitute a legal uniform. Insisting that it should be "common sense" doesn't help me determine whether the uniform I've been using for the last five years is suddenly going to get me in trouble.

You also didn't answer question #2 - how will a gym owner know what's an appropriate uniform for each event producer? I would think that if I'm buying uniforms for the next season, I'd want to make sure that I don't run afoul of an EP's guidelines. How do I know what those guidelines are? I just have to guess at them? And I'm sure that uniform companies would like to know what the rules would be as well, because the last thing they need are customers screaming at them because their design got a team disqualified from a competition.

And because you didn't address the concerns in #1 and #2, it's hard to take the rest of your responses seriously. Because if I don't even know what the guidelines are, how in the world am I going to know if I'm being "conservative" enough, short of putting everyone in high-school uniforms circa 1998?

 

[cheercurl]

I read your responses.

You didn't answer question #1 at all - how do you define revealing or inappropriate? Saying that you should be "thoughtful and conservative" about your uniform choice doesn't really give me any guidance as to what would constitute a legal uniform. Insisting that it should be "common sense" doesn't help me determine whether the uniform I've been using for the last five years is suddenly going to get me in trouble.

You also didn't answer question #2 - how will a gym owner know what's an appropriate uniform for each event producer? I would think that if I'm buying uniforms for the next season, I'd want to make sure that I don't run afoul of an EP's guidelines. How do I know what those guidelines are? I just have to guess at them? And I'm sure that uniform companies would like to know what the rules would be as well, because the last thing they need are customers screaming at them because their design got a team disqualified from a competition.

And because you didn't address the concerns in #1 and #2, it's hard to take the rest of your responses seriously. Because if I don't even know what the guidelines are, how in the world am I going to know if I'm being "conservative" enough, short of putting everyone in high-school uniforms circa 1998?

Yet again you are not understanding that it doesn't need to be defined. If you don't know the difference between revealing, inappropriate and appropriate you have bigger problems than your uniform.

This is not rocket science....put out a uniform your gym would be proud to wear. If you have to question the appropriateness of it...you went to far and I suggest you re-evaluate. You and I can do this all day long. I get you don't agree and I also get you want a definition. My whole point is by admonishing those who offend...they will self correct. By handing out an executive decision you have just penalized people who did the right thing. My "ideal" is don't punish everyone for a few poor choices.

I just want you to know I go back to work in September so if you want to play this circle game you have until labor day. #just sayin'

 

[Mom2Cheergirls]

I think the big difference is that there are people who feel that just having a definition of inappropriate would be enough and there are those who think that definitive rules similar to those in other sports might be a better path. The USASF's job is to make clear definitive rules so that there is a consistent process throughout the sport in handling infractions to those rules. They are doing nothing different then how the sports of ice skating and gymnastics are in making these rules. In fact Ice Skating moved beyond the definition of just appropriate in the 1980s due to costume controversy in the Olympics. Does it mean you have to like it - no.
I have a hard time with saying that a child on a team younger than Senior must wear a top that covers her torso is punishment that seems to be the big debate point I am hearing now, and really don't agree. Children and many adults in the workplace face dress code rules all the time, and many business have specific dress codes as well (thinking some water parks, amusement parks, stores and restaurants). They are not saying everyone must wear the exact same uniform there is still room for individuality between gyms. A gym may not get to do things how they want exactly it does not mean it is punishment - each day we all face many rules (many put in place to protect in particular children) that we may not like but are what they are -- it does not mean you are being punished. And it does not mean you had a say in those rules being put in place.
When you have an open ended definition of a word like appropriate or inappropriate that word is defined by one's own values, experiences, culture, religion - and does not lend itself to consistency in such a diverse country as we have. The idea of trying to play the game of figuring out what would be considered appropriate at your most conservative competition is good in theory, but if it becomes a matter of this ruling being made by judges which could change at any point then that just makes this harder. I do though wish USASF could just go to the gyms really out there and hit them upside the head with a common sense stick.
The gyms that have these little numbers are proud of them they post them and say now we are the fiercest looking team around. Moms and Dads are clapping and cheering on their little 6 years olds dressed as pole dancer grinding and thrusting in ways that are just so wrong - seen it - and they are proud of it. So I think the assumption that just putting out a uniform your gym would be proud of again leaves too much room for ambiguity.

 

[cheercurl]

I think the big difference is that there are people who feel that just having a definition of inappropriate would be enough and there are those who think that definitive rules similar to those in other sports might be a better path. The USASF's job is to make clear definitive rules so that there is a consistent process throughout the sport in handling infractions to those rules. They are doing nothing different then how the sports of ice skating and gymnastics are in making these rules. In fact Ice Skating moved beyond the definition of just appropriate in the 1980s due to costume controversy in the Olympics. Does it mean you have to like it - no.
I have a hard time with saying that a child on a team younger than Senior must wear a top that covers her torso is punishment that seems to be the big debate point I am hearing now, and really don't agree. Children and many adults in the workplace face dress code rules all the time, and many business have specific dress codes as well (thinking some water parks, amusement parks, stores and restaurants). They are not saying everyone must wear the exact same uniform there is still room for individuality between gyms. A gym may not get to do things how they want exactly it does not mean it is punishment - each day we all face many rules (many put in place to protect in particular children) that we may not like but are what they are -- it does not mean you are being punished. And it does not mean you had a say in those rules being put in place.
When you have an open ended definition of a word like appropriate or inappropriate that word is defined by one's own values, experiences, culture, religion - and does not lend itself to consistency in such a diverse country as we have. The idea of trying to play the game of figuring out what would be considered appropriate at your most conservative competition is good in theory, but if it becomes a matter of this ruling being made by judges which could change at any point then that just makes this harder. I do though wish USASF could just go to the gyms really out there and hit them upside the head with a common sense stick.
The gyms that have these little numbers are proud of them they post them and say now we are the fiercest looking team around. Moms and Dads are clapping and cheering on their little 6 years olds dressed as pole dancer grinding and thrusting in ways that are just so wrong - seen it - and they are proud of it. So I think the assumption that just putting out a uniform your gym would be proud of again leaves too much room for ambiguity.

Just one question...do you think the gym that claims it is the "fiercest one" would keep that uniform if they risked being disqualified? Do you think they are clueless to the looks and gasps they have gotten putting those tiny little tops on those tiny little girls? Do you not think they would self correct before taking the risk of being penalized. I think they would change their uniforms...because they know they will be deemed inappropriate. You know why? Common sense. They were an excellent example...thank you.

 

[Labegg]

I got it, I got it... everyone who wants their teams to wear crop tops gets a snap in panel to convert their crop to a full length top. That way they can use the crop top for the EP that allow crop and a full top for the EP that requires full...

OK and so maybe its just me, but crop tops on teen girls (read bustier) is just as, if not more offensive, than crop tops on juniors, youth, mini's and tinys.

BTW up until this year, beach volleyball players were REQUIRED to wear bikinis, it was in their rules. This is the first year that regular shirts and "bike" shorts were allowed. See as sports grow, rules change!

Frankly, I could care less if it's crop or if it's full tops. But, then again I don't have a problem with following rules. You get what you get and you don't throw a fit!

I like full length, but my junior age CP will be wearing a crop top for her team. If we have to buy a full top next season, so be it. After a team takes the floor and is more than 8 counts into a routine, it doesn't even register to me what they are wearing, I am watching the routine.

However, I am in the club that when you not on the floor you should be covered up. Period. Oh yeah...and come to the venue fully dressed with your hair done. (EP's please provide a room where teams can get dressed if needed) You really need to have your hair up in curlers until 10 minutes before warm-ups? This is a sporting contest not a beauty pageant.

As for what about those kids crossing over... not sure who said it above, but if you are gonna crossover, than suck it up and buy two tops, its part of the expense of double dipping. Maybe it will cut back on the sandbagging...Oh yeah, that's a whole other discussion.

For the excuse that its just too hot to wear full length...really ladies, the guys do it.

If you think it's too hot wearing a full length top in an air conditioned venue, thank your lucky stars you don't play goalie for field hockey or lacrosse. If you did you would really know what it's like to compete in a uniform that is hot and restrictive.

If you think that you can't throw your awesome tumbling skills in a full length top...didn't we just watch the Olympic gymnasts compete in full length leotards? They seemed to be able to throw their tumbling just fine...

Coach Troy...You ACTUALLY had your business hurt, ie people left, because their kid may have to wear a full length top? Really?

Just trying to be contensious!

 

[Jadie_Loves_Cheer]

I think they need to go completely one way or the other.. Since people's opinions of what is age appropriate can be TOTALLY different. Either crop tops should be allowed for everyone, or not at all. Making them wear a shirt when not competing is ridiculous. If they can compete in it, they should be able to wear it around the competition right? My gym all wears full tops anyway (I really don't mind it), so it doesn't affect me. But all gyms should have their choice!