All-Star Usasf Changes Program Definitions/classifications

[luv2cheer92]

But if there was no restriction on who could enter the division.. then there would be no point of the division..

I honestly wouldn't mind a Worlds where you could only bring one team.. and everyone competed against each other in either a ALL GIRL or COED Division.

I think there would still be plenty of teams in that division if there weren't restrictions. Though I would rather there not be any more divisions in the first place, I see less of a need for the division with the restrictions than if they weren't there. Plus, the restrictions do not apply to the non-Worlds XS divisions.

 

[ACEDAD]

But if there was no restriction on who could enter the division.. then there would be no point of the division..

I honestly wouldn't mind a Worlds where you could only bring one team.. and everyone competed against each other in either a ALL GIRL or COED Division.

That was mostly 2004.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[tumbleyoda]

While I love the idea of the XS division because it is a great opportunity for many smaller gyms, I do not love the reason we have come to this point in the industry. To be blunt many of the issues even rehashed in this thread could of been dealt with a long time ago and we could be much further along the journey. The core things that keep keep getting ignored because it is too difficult to deal with or we don't want to admit they are issues because it then changes our reality:

1.) There is no independent judging organization. Therefore judges are beholden to the EP who is beholden to a bottom line. No transparency in scoring, subjectivity wiggle room to basically pick whomever you want allow you to make anyone win a division that you want. That system needed to be changed a very long time ago.
2.) This is a business first. We keep screaming about the sporting side of it, but that is in many ways an illusion of necessity to keep the money rolling in. Therefore things that may be deemed as perfectly acceptable business practices are viewed as preferential treatment, favoritism, brand recognition gets free passes on things unknown gyms don't, etc., from the sporting side. Things that make perfect sense from the sporting side are viewed as bad business practice.
3.) We confuse competition with being competitive. Just because a team is in a division (any division) does not mean they have a competitive chance to win. That is an assumption we like to make because we want to believe that one would not put a team in a division where they had no chance to win. Yet many factors affect these decisions.
4.) As much as we do not like to admit it, the competition floor experience is not always level because of factors that affect how teams are put together before they ever get to the competition.

Most every hot debate about the integrity, ethics and results of the industry can be distilled to its core as being rooted in one of these four areas. Two of them are controlled by the industry. The third by the gym itself. The last is just one of many outside influences that affect what we see on the floor.

IMO we should of let there be a Worlds and a Non Worlds level 5. I am talking about before Summit. Before US Finals. Before All Levels. That would of let gyms build their teams and compete against like kind without being compared to gyms that were truly already Worlds best of best caliber. But we wanted there to be competition in level 5. We needed teams to fight it out at Disney. So we refused any opportunity for gyms to compete Level 5 without being compared to a CEA, CA, Stingrays, WC, etc. Then we got on social media and dogged them out when they didn't look as good as those well established programs. So gyms wised up and some changed strategies and some started looking for other competition options. Whether it is rec, AAU or just doing show teams.

It is this last piece that is why we have made so many changes especially in regards to level 5. Because programs are not jumping on the Worlds or bust bandwagon like the used to. And it affects the bottom line issue. Money.

The best current fix IMO would be to let D2 Summit have Level 5 in small All Girl and Small Coed only. Strengthen the rules properly and close loopholes if there are any. Then there would be no need for an XS division at Worlds. But in order to do that you would have to have USASF agree to relinquish some of that ownership of the Level 5 division to only attend Worlds.

 

[DonnaM]

Isn't 5r kind of the not-World's level 5 already?

 

[tumbleyoda]

Isn't 5r kind of the not-World's level 5 already?

Yes and no. Yes because they are not officially not considered by many in the industry as "true level 5" even though many of them are capable of throwing level 5 skills, more than what the scoreesheet and rules call for. No because when you have larger gyms with an abundance of athletes at L5 flying on and relocating to be on such teams typically your R5 team is nothing more than the second or third string L5 team. It is not they they are not strong at L5 just not as strong as those on the floor.

R5 was also considered as a nod to small gyms that did not have the upper level Level 5 tumbling or stunting. Although it was trotted out as safety so that small gyms wouldn't try the hard skills. But what you see now is most of those divisions dominated by the more well known gyms who crossover multiple athletes into that division to maintain dominance in their demographic which for them is a sound business decision. Until Summit and Worlds comes and they have to make choices. Then you rarely see those teams with the same dominance because they are pulled up to the L5 or down to the l4 to stack the team and leaving them too weak or short in number to compete with the same dominance at R5.

 

[CLynn]

It is this last piece that is why we have made so many changes especially in regards to level 5. Because programs are not jumping on the Worlds or bust bandwagon like the used to. And it affects the bottom line issue. Money.

Hmmm... Framed this way it feels as if xs is a Trojan Horse for smaller gyms...Level 5 at D2 Summit would seem to make so much more sense from a competitive and logistical (crossovers, travel expenses, etc) perspective.

 

[tumbleyoda]

Hmmm... Framed this way it feels as if xs is a Trojan Horse for smaller gyms...Level 5 at D2 Summit would seem to make so much more sense from a competitive and logistical (crossovers, travel expenses, etc) perspective.

More like a business incentive to have them not leave the USASF/Varsity way of life and look for other options. Every time something "big" has been announced that seemed to be in favor of small gyms there has always been a movement behind the scenes of gyms and coaches walking away, refusing to do business (uniforms, choreo, music, etc) with them, or severely scaling back their Varsity schedule.

 

[tumbleyoda]

***accidental double post.***

 

[ScottyB]

Running a business is difficult in all industries. I've been doing my profession for 30+ years and have owned 100% of a couple of businesses and parts of a couple of others. It's still tough. Our executive team is currently working through a program based on "The E Myth" books by Michael Gerber. The essence is that it's common for a superb technician of a service (e.g. a coach) to decide they would be better off running their own business (e.g. a gym). However, the business ends up running them because they spend all their time essentially creating a job for themselves instead of actually working the business.

I recommend the book(s) highly. Even for us old guys that have been doing this a while, it's eye opening.

So true, I would love to own/operate a restaurant because I have managed them in the past, love the kitchen, and love cooking, but I know it would run my life 18-20 hours a day, 7 days a week. Just can't do it like that.

 

[OldskoolKYcheercoach]

There is no doubt that people's opinion is influenced by their circumstances. I am certain that mine is. I am also pretty sure that the mega-gyms aren't going to win much sympathy with their concerns. (Who cares if it is unfair? You are drowning in athletes anyway.)

For what it is worth, my personal worry isn't whether a theoretical team of 12 Cheer Athletics athletes can compete in the XS division at Worlds 2017. We probably wouldn't have a team in one of those divisions this season even if we had the option. I am much more concerned with 3 trends and the steps this takes in all of those directions.

1. Adding more divisions in an attempt to solve every issue. Some issues have been greatly helped by adding levels/divisions/gym categories/etc. However, there is a point when a lack of competition is more of a negative than whatever positive you gain from further splitting teams. Granted, 2 more divisions at Worlds probably won't mean anyone competes by themselves, but despite a supposed declining number of teams nationally, we continue to find ways to split teams up further. How long before the gyms with 126 athletes complain that they can't fairly compete with gyms of 700, so we make D1/D2/D3? What about teams of 8 athletes? XXS? Each division can make sense in the small picture, but what about the big picture? How many different ways do we need to split up the competition pool? How many World Champions can we crown before it becomes as silly as what "National Champion" means in our sport?

2. Changing rules to favor particular special interest groups. At Worlds alone, we have seen it with the "international division" scoresheets, the limitations on finals based on geography, and now we have special divisions effectively only for certain types of gyms. You can argue that the intent is only to help a particular subset of sympathetic gyms, but in many cases, the USASF is essentially pushing down on one side of the scale in order to raise up the other. I understand your excitement if you are one of the businesses getting a boost, but do we want USASF playing that role? How long before the roles are reversed and USASF is pushing your business down to help someone else?

3. Creating incentives for gyms to stay small. In theory, part of the USASF's mission is to increase overall participation in all star cheer. With seemingly good intentions, they continue to set up incentives for gyms to not grow. There are two big examples:

• The scoresheet bases difficulty on ratios to help smaller teams - coaches now intentionally put fewer athletes on teams.
• Gyms 125 and under have their own optional events/divisions - gyms stop registering all of their athletes, stop taking teams to sanctioned events, or worse - start turning athletes away to avoid being D1.

UCA has done the same thing with NHSCC:

1) D1 and D2 in the varsity divisions. With different school population breaks in small/medium and large/super. A small school should be a small school and a large school should be a large school no matter what division they're in.

2) you live in a state that doesn't allow you to build? Here's your non-building division (AKA dance on steroids).

3) you think it's hard to develop tumbling skills? Here's your non-tumbling division

If there's a market, it's going to get exploited. Capitalism > competitive environment

 

[OldskoolKYcheercoach]

On the flip side, I do see a huge trend/pull towards consolidation in the industry - whether it is Varsity scooping up event producers or the larger gyms acquiring smaller ones. I can't speak for the event side, but our experience is NOT that we are predators trying to greedily eat all of the smaller fish in the sea. We get weekly calls from gyms urging us to buy them or let them franchise. Some are willing to literally give us their entire business for free in exchange for using our brand. They feel it is the only way for them to stay open, keep their coaches employed, and keep their athletes from leaving. When we invariably tell them "no", it doesn't feel like we are doing the small gym community or the industry any favors by limiting our growth.

We generally try to do the right thing and be good for the cheer community. We have created careers for a ton of coaches with the benefits, job security, and chance for advancement that they wouldn't get unless they had "real" jobs. We have a ton of happy customers that, in turn, bring more of their friends into cheer. I think the vast majority of the "mega-gyms" are similar. I'm not suggesting we are always perfect angels or that we aren't driven to some extent by a profit motive. However, it gets old being made out to be the downfall of our sport and the reason so many of our colleagues are losing kids.

I honestly don't know all of the market factors causing some gyms to struggle. We certainly aren't the only industry where some businesses fail while others grow and succeed. However, it doesn't feel like giving Worlds banners to 2 large, but not-quite-mega gyms is going to make much difference, but maybe I could be wrong. Surely the issue isn't simply that we need to crown more World Champions. What are your opinions?

Too many gym-owners get into the business to coach, not manage.

They think because they either:

A) cheered at some point in their lives

B) coached a school team somewhere

C) volunteered to coach their daughter's pop Warner team

Or

D) have a child who's cheered for five years and a bank account big enough to write some checks

That they can make a successful go at it as a business owner. They forget one part BUSINESS. In my time watching and working with some super-small gyms I've seen the following:

No budget
No business plan
No accounting system
No employee accountability
No liability insurance
No schedule
No money (bounced checks)
No record keeping ("most of them pay, I think")
No air conditioning in 100 degree weather
No comp schedule (I'll text everyone and see if they want to add this comp)
No means of communication (where's the phone?)

There's more, but most of them would get into too much detail for this discussion. It's not hard to see why these places fail. That's a conglomeration of things missing from 3 different small gyms that I visited to do choreography/clinics. The one thing they all had an ample amount of? DEBT. In hock up to their eyeballs with no way out. Why do I know these things? They were all so stressed by the amount of debt they had that they could think of nothing else and spent any dead time we had verbalizing these issues.

 

[ScottyB]

Too many gym-owners get into the business to coach, not manage.

They think because they either:

A) cheered at some point in their lives

B) coached a school team somewhere

C) volunteered to coach their daughter's pop Warner team

Or

D) have a child who's cheered for five years and a bank account big enough to write some checks

That they can make a successful go at it as a business owner. They forget one part BUSINESS. In my time watching and working with some super-small gyms I've seen the following:

No budget
No business plan
No accounting system
No employee accountability
No liability insurance
No schedule
No money (bounced checks)
No record keeping ("most of them pay, I think")
No air conditioning in 100 degree weather
No comp schedule (I'll text everyone and see if they want to add this comp)
No means of communication (where's the phone?)

There's more, but most of them would get into too much detail for this discussion. It's not hard to see why these places fail. That's a conglomeration of things missing from 3 different small gyms that I visited to do choreography/clinics. The one thing they all had an ample amount of? DEBT. In hock up to their eyeballs with no way out. Why do I know these things? They were all so stressed by the amount of debt they had that they could think of nothing else and spent any dead time we had verbalizing these issues.

We need an auto text script of this as a reply for people that make posts saying they wanna open a gym

 

[tumbleyoda]

Too many gym-owners get into the business to coach, not manage.

They think because they either:

A) cheered at some point in their lives

B) coached a school team somewhere

C) volunteered to coach their daughter's pop Warner team

Or

D) have a child who's cheered for five years and a bank account big enough to write some checks

That they can make a successful go at it as a business owner. They forget one part BUSINESS. In my time watching and working with some super-small gyms I've seen the following:

No budget
No business plan
No accounting system
No employee accountability
No liability insurance
No schedule
No money (bounced checks)
No record keeping ("most of them pay, I think")
No air conditioning in 100 degree weather
No comp schedule (I'll text everyone and see if they want to add this comp)
No means of communication (where's the phone?)

There's more, but most of them would get into too much detail for this discussion. It's not hard to see why these places fail. That's a conglomeration of things missing from 3 different small gyms that I visited to do choreography/clinics. The one thing they all had an ample amount of? DEBT. In hock up to their eyeballs with no way out. Why do I know these things? They were all so stressed by the amount of debt they had that they could think of nothing else and spent any dead time we had verbalizing these issues.

Spot on. In short they want to be in charge, but not really. They want to be responsible but only in the things they want to be responsible for like uniforms, music, competition schedule, choreography, certain team placements. They don't want to deal with any of the fallout of any of those decisions however. Too many gyms have been opened because of a name, a ring, a dream and closed in short order because of not having the things in place that you mention. Sometimes it is better to recognize your strengths and weaknesses and find a program with a better fit, than to get overwhelmed by things you have no desire to even deal with.

 

[SparkleSpankies]

Spot on. In short they want to be in charge, but not really. They want to be responsible but only in the things they want to be responsible for like uniforms, music, competition schedule, choreography, certain team placements. They don't want to deal with any of the fallout of any of those decisions however. Too many gyms have been opened because of a name, a ring, a dream and closed in short order because of not having the things in place that you mention. Sometimes it is better to recognize your strengths and weaknesses and find a program with a better fit, than to get overwhelmed by things you have no desire to even deal with.

A local middle school where I live, the kids don't want to cheer for the high school program, but the coaches who are moms want to keep them together, so they want to "start their own 4.2 all star team"... they barely stunt at level 3.. I don't understand.. and well, not sure how this fits into the topic at hand, but I am just baffled that people think they can just start an all star team as @OldskoolKYcheercoach mentioned... there has to be sooooo many pieces to the puzzle. This is way deeper then D1 vs D2... but wanted to add my 2 cents.

 

[catlady]

3. Should we keep some types of gyms out of divisions to possibly improve the rankings for other types of gyms?

I think you can probably make fairly compelling arguments for #1 and #2. However, I am fundamentally opposed to #3 and having restricted divisions* at the World Championships. I can live with them at the hundreds of other regionals and nationals out there, but Worlds should be about finding the best teams in the World, without regard for gym size, tax ID, geography, brand strength, etc.

* I understand that there are restrictions based on age, gender, number on the floor, etc. Those are completely different, IMO.

From a business point of view it's superficial and small gym owners are being thrown a bone to appease them.

What I see happening to the lower levels, the true feeder base of all sports, are those parents and athletes are feeling athlete "level" is irrelevant. Gyms, coaches, parents and kids have become so focused on getting bids that caring about actual athlete progression is slowing down. Athletes and parents aren't caring as much about getting to the next level, as much as, getting on the team and division where it will be easier to win. This rule does not feed progression and competition, it feeds desperation. Why does an athlete need to go to tumble class, stunt class, privates, etc. if they don't really care about getting to the next level? Even if level 5, it stunts creativity and out of the box thinking for the win. <<<< This is what will destroy the small business faster than anything, not the lack of a banner.