All-Star Varsity Scoring Update: Squad Tumbling - 75% = 100%

[Level5Mom]

Actually, what you suggested (capping the number of skills used to configure your score is in the works as well. The only reason we posted the 75% = 100% idea early was because it may affect actual tryouts and selection process. Everything else, including capping skills, affect routine choreography but not really team selection.

I cannot tell you how glad I am to hear this . If I had to choose between a lack of full team tumbling and more tumbling restrictions, I would choose a lack of full team tumbling. This allows the tumblers to tumble and the stunters to stunt, and the well rounded to do it all! Kudos .

 

[Level5Mom]

I probably shouldn't have posted this here. We could have let coaches know without broadcasting it to the world and avoided some of the anti-varsity drama that continues to linger.

ASCheerMan thank you so much for posting it here. I'm glad you did because eventually it gets brought up here anyway. I appreciate your willingness to come here and inform us, especially knowing backlash comes from any sort of change no matter what it is. As a paying parent who is passionate about the sport, it makes me feel like I have a voice when those higher up in the sport come on here and not only post, but ask us for feedback. It takes a lot of courage to do what you and RulesGuy do here knowing the nature of the fierceboard . Please continue to post updates here, we appreciate it very much!

 

[King]

I'm not surprised by this, but I can say I'm a little dissapointed. I really feel this could hurt participation in level 1, which at all ages I feel is a vital part of our sport. It also removes a huge advantage I have over other teams (at least the ones in my area that I see every weekend). I've already had my teams beat in tumbling at some regional comps (most notably at an NCA event for what it's worth) by teams with sub par difficulty, execution, and quantity. While I chalked that up to poor judging, this will make it worse.

Another thought, it's easier to judge whether a team has full squad than it is 75%. And it's harder to explain to parents why we scored equal to a team we had more skills than.

However ASCheerMan , I can see its merit and it is better than the half plus one that was mentioned in 'that' announcement from the usasf. It will actually help a couple of our teams, and make choreo easier, it just removes a competitive advantage that my teams (already selected) have so I'll be a lil bitter . And it's going to make them have to go HARD in tumbling to set themselves apart, but I'm okay with that lol. (this is all from a medium gym perspective in case it matters. Right around 200)

kingston
Do you think this would this have changed the way some of the rays teams are made being that NCA is your main focus (outside of worlds)

I think they will always pick teams to be as close to 100% as possible, but now have a bit of flexibility. The one girl out of squad jumps or tumbling isn't as detrimental as it used to be.

Though I do think all things being equal and if two teams throw the exact same routine except one has 75% and one has 100% the 100% will have an advantage.

 

[BlueCat]

There are benefits to this that aren't obvious at first glance. Instead of having knee-jerk anti-Varsity opinions, we should debate the topic and discuss its merits.

I think this could potentially have multiple positive results. Not enough time to delve into each one, but I can see this improving safety in multiple ways, make judging easier to do correctly, and allow coaches much more flexibility in creating unique routines that don't have to follow the same basic outline. It also lets smaller gyms potentially field competitive teams more easily.

A better way to look at is valuing quality vs. quantity.

 

[Ashley]

I don't think this is a bad thing at all. It has a number of positives to it:

1. Help small gyms remain competitive. (I know, I know - "But we don't need a handout! We can remain competitive on our own!")
2. Give coaches flexibility when picking teams. In college I was always that one girl in the back that didn't do the team tumbling - I was in all of the pyramids and baskets and stunts, tumbling was this huge fear/block I had that I could never get over. A coach can now take that beautiful flyer or beast base who doesn't quite have the tumbling without fear of hurting one part of the score sheet in favor of another.
3. Safety. How many times have we complained about janky tumbling on this board? As BlueCat said, the emphasis will not be on quality vs. quantity. Suzie won't have to throw her under-rotated double. And that level 4 girl won't have to throw her layout that she's been busting.
4. Coed stunting. A coed college team used to be made up of super strong stunter guys or tumbling guys who assisted the stunts. Now you have to be good at everything, and I think all-stars have lost a lot of those stunter guys in favor of the tumblers because you HAD to be able to tumble. This will help a team keep that former football player who is never going to be able to throw a tumbling pass from the corner.
5. Judges. Not that I've ever judged, but I'm sure it's going to be a lot easier to tell if a team has 75% tumbling than 100% tumbling (I'm sure it's not always easy to see those nuggets in the back).

This isn't going to make kids complacent. You are still going to have plenty of kids who want to be the best cheerleader they can be. It make make a few kids who have sever tumbling blocks complacent, but honestly, they may have left the sport otherwise if their coach was insisting they tumble or replacing them on their team.

This is not the end of the world, and teams who throw 100% tumbling will still be rewarded on other parts of the score sheet. It's not a waste or useless to do so, but gyms now don't have to pick teams based first on tumbling.

 

[12stepCheermom]

I think a MUCH BIGGER deal is being made about this than is necessary. When all is said and done, Difficulty Score has SO MANY elements considered that the difference between 75% and 100% is negligible.

Judges haven't been penalizing teams for having a few athletes not involved in a sequence and this idea compliments that reality.

Every single coach we ran this buy thought through the idea and LOVED IT. That's why I'm shocked people are reacting so passionately against it. It definitely makes me think we need to review its purpose and implementation.

Part of me wonders if people are upset because they are linking this to the USASF announcement and it feels like things are changing everywhere. I probably shouldn't have posted this here. We could have let coaches know without broadcasting it to the world and avoided some of the anti-varsity drama that continues to linger.

I wouldn't throw the baby out with the bath water. I don't know the fierce board people's real life enough to know how many are coaches. It might still be as popular with them (and they know what they're doing) rather than with people here (like me who only THINK I know what I'm talking about) in all actuality, I think this helps our gym. We have some monster stunters and flyers that just don't have fulls yet (working on them, but were about perfection first, and theyre not perfected so they wont get put on the floor). we had a super base-back spot that is working on single basing and is good at it, but she doesn't have a tuck and was on Level 3. I think it does give more flexibility And may even have gyms go with large teams rather than small if they can pull up people who can stunt that level. Generally speaking I think our gym seems to cap our team numbers based on tumbling so we can have squad tumbling. That just got a little more flexibility with this. So id be interested to hear what coaches have to say. I've seen a couple of comments on here (and some have been positive about it) but more often it's not coaches commenting. Just a thought.

 

[CoachMandiCF]

My small team from mysmall gym has worked their tails off for their full team tumbling, and we already didn't max on the varsity scoresheet for difficulty (which has yet to be actually explained to me in a way that makes sense). So if my full team tumbling didn't max, then I am REALLY interested to see what happens this season...

oh wow!! no answer either huh?? that's what irritates me the most. we don't do any varsity events, but this would make me steer from it, especially being a small gym.

 

[Ashley]

oh wow!! no answer either huh?? that's what irritates me the most. we don't do any varsity events, but this would make me steer from it, especially being a small gym.

ASCheerMan has no obligation to respond to questions on FierceBoard. He is actually giving great customer service by choosing to do so. If you have a question or issue with the score sheet, why don't you talk to your coach and have them contact their Varsity rep?

 

[SheCheers]

ASCheerMan has no obligation to respond to questions on FierceBoard. He is actually giving great customer service by choosing to do so. If you have a question or issue with the score sheet, why don't you talk to your coach and have them contact their Varsity rep?

I agree, the very few questions I've ever had, ASCheerMan has always answered them quickly and professionally on the board, when he didn't have to. And to be honest, if I were him, I probably wouldn't bother. I really appreciate his calm, rational manner and thorough explanations

That being said, I think the problem people have is, Varsity/USASF tends to blurt out these announcements without explanation, vague wording and with really odd timing. "Wiggle room" is probably not a very good explanation IMHO. The way it's been explained by ASCheerMan, is a lot more understandable and not as rage-inducing...LOL. As for the timing, the vast majority of gyms have had tryouts already and team placements. Now do they have to move things around? Could they have formed better "building" teams had they known sooner? Will they now be at a disadvantage to those teams who have not had tryouts. AND on top of this everyone is still waiting on the Age grid/rules for this season that was supposed to be announced Monday at 5pm! So, yes I agree, people are a bit sore about everything and are probably overreacting, but can we blame them?

 

[Ashley]

I agree, the very few questions I've ever had, ASCheerMan has always answered them quickly and professionally on the board, when he didn't have to. And to be honest, if I were him, I probably wouldn't bother. I really appreciate his calm, rational manner and thorough explanations

That being said, I think the problem people have is, Varsity/USASF tends to blurt out these announcements without explanation, vague wording and with really odd timing. "Wiggle room" is probably not a very good explanation IMHO. The way it's been explained by ASCheerMan, is a lot more understandable and not as rage-inducing...LOL. As for the timing, the vast majority of gyms have had tryouts already and team placements. Now do they have to move things around? Could they have formed better "building" teams had they known sooner? Will they now be at a disadvantage to those teams who have not had tryouts. AND on top of this everyone is still waiting on the Age grid/rules for this season that was supposed to be announced Monday at 5pm! So, yes I agree, people are a bit sore about everything and are probably overreacting, but can we blame them?

For what it's worth, Les Stella said the rules/age grid is just going to be what was announced a month or two ago.

 

[King]

I think the Fierce Board is an excellent proving ground as the community encourages tearing apart every new thing that comes out. We basically are vetting it for everyone. If by the end of a thread we have hammered out all the kinks in the system you know you have a good idea. I would kill for something like the board in my day job to go through my ideas like this.

 

[SparkleSpankies]

Of course it is cost as level 5 mom stated. We have just come through a terrible recession and the economy is not out of the woods yet. I do not believe for one minute that level 5 athletes do not see it as "fun". Individuals driven to reach the upper echelons of a sport are probably cut from a different cloth. Their drive and motivation are probably different.

Sorry, I firmly disagree. For kids activities/sports where there can be a lot of pressure, things become not fun. Wether it is parent pressure, wether it is coach pressure, etc. Think about how many talented gymnasts are in the country and they just can't do it anymore b/c it is no longer fun. Think about how many guys may be awesome football players or baseball players but the dad's push and the son shuts down, think about the parent who strives for the best grades in the world and their kid rebels, think about the school basketball team that is the best in the state and even though the coach is awesome, it's a tough coach, the practice and the time given and the extra conditioning, the pressure to have to win, it is not fun anymore.

Not all kids are built the same and not every level 5 all-star cheerleader will find it fun after years and years and years. Have you ever noticed how few actual 12th graders there are in any of your programs in comparison to younger levels... why b/c it is not fun for some anymore, it is not worth spending the $$ if your kid is feeling pressure.

I don't agree w/ the rule at all, full squad is full squad not 75% and they should not be scored as full squad PERIOD

 

[SmileCat]

I really like this new rule.. I think it benifits the smaller gyms more though.. So they're not pushing athletes to throw janky tumbling to fill that 100% tumbling rule (like everyone asked for). I don't know why everyone's complaining now when this is pretty much what they asked for.
This rule isn't saying that your CP won't tumble, it's just preventing athletes being thrown on a level where they don't fit the tumbling requirements and is rushed into learning that skill UN-safely.

 

[Supermom]

OK, what am I missing here......... why should 75% be given full credit?????? 100% should get full credit.....99% should get 99%credit.......75% should get 75%credit............You dont get 100% on your driving test if you get 75% of the questions right.

 

[Rudags]

OK, what am I missing here......... why should 75% be given full credit?????? 100% should get full credit.....99% should get 99%credit.......75% should get 75%credit............You dont get 100% on your driving test if you get 75% of the questions right.

Lets be honest. (And this is not just towards you plyman1 you're just the most recent post) Almost all teams (even World Champion teams) had several fakers in tumbling or people not in it all together. I would personally like to not see fakers. I would also like to see 4 people that can kill stunts be put in a routine to up the division difficulty in stunts, specifically if that is going to be the only thing that won't be taken away from us.

Also, as a coach, maxing out tumbling on ANY scoresheet is a pain in my booty. Im glad that 75% is an option for that.