All-Star Vent On Nca's Sandbagging Policy

[mommadonna]

I seriously doubt that 99.5% of cheer parents even know what the true role of the USASF is, how it impacts their child, or that they can help make a positive difference in the sport.

I totally agree with this. I know a ton of great supportive moms, some of whom are still not very knowledgeable about the inner workings of the sport as a whole. I guess it depends on how busy they are with other things, etc, and I can only speak for myself, but I think a part of supporting my child is supporting the sport they're in. As far as the sandbagging goes, I hate to see people trying to work around loop holes instead of working on putting together a great team. What kind of example do we set for our kids if we allow that to happen? A part of having kids in sports is to help teach them to play fair, lose gracefully, and work hard for that win! I'm just sayin'...Okay...venting is over. Resume your conversation.

 

[PullandPray23]

all you can say is "god bless you" for not having faith in your teams to pull out a win even though you are the one whom is shaping these kids

 

[Cheer Cougar]

Not to defend sandbagging, by any means,... but could it be possible that some overly ambitious coach didn't properly evaluate the skill levels of their kids, and had them competing at a level higher than they really should have been at? And one day after getting their 'spankies' handed to them, they decided it would be best to try to max out the scoresheet at their true skill levels?

Or maybe,.. after paying a whole lotta money for a 'Big Name' choreographer to create a phenomenal routine, which they later ended up watering down,... cuz they really couldn't have the majority of their team do the skills they told 'BN' choreographer they could do,...

or maybe,... just maybe,... the gym/owner/coach pushed the kids to compete at a higher level because a handful of parents threatened to take their kids outta the program if they didn't perform 'X' skill that they just got over the summer??? We've all seen teams compete at level 3 with only a handful of tucks that don't face-plant!!
JMO

 

[tumbleyoda]

Not to defend sandbagging, by any means,... but could it be possible that some overly ambitious coach didn't properly evaluate the skill levels of their kids, and had them competing at a level higher than they really should have been at? And one day after getting their 'spankies' handed to them, they decided it would be best to try to max out the scoresheet at their true skill levels?

Or maybe,.. after paying a whole lotta money for a 'Big Name' choreographer to create a phenomenal routine, which they later ended up watering down,... cuz they really couldn't have the majority of their team do the skills they told 'BN' choreographer they could do,...

or maybe,... just maybe,... the gym/owner/coach pushed the kids to compete at a higher level because a handful of parents threatened to take their kids outta the program if they didn't perform 'X' skill that they just got over the summer??? We've all seen teams compete at level 3 with only a handful of tucks that don't face-plant!!
JMO

The reasons you mention happen a whole lot more than we like to admit, especially in the smaller gym.

 

[redsmom]

Not to defend sandbagging, by any means,... but could it be possible that some overly ambitious coach didn't properly evaluate the skill levels of their kids, and had them competing at a level higher than they really should have been at? And one day after getting their 'spankies' handed to them, they decided it would be best to try to max out the scoresheet at their true skill levels?

Or maybe,.. after paying a whole lotta money for a 'Big Name' choreographer to create a phenomenal routine, which they later ended up watering down,... cuz they really couldn't have the majority of their team do the skills they told 'BN' choreographer they could do,...

or maybe,... just maybe,... the gym/owner/coach pushed the kids to compete at a higher level because a handful of parents threatened to take their kids outta the program if they didn't perform 'X' skill that they just got over the summer??? We've all seen teams compete at level 3 with only a handful of tucks that don't face-plant!!
JMO

This does happen, my cp was on a team 2 years in a row that hoped to be level 4 and ended up competing level 3 (all those standing tucks that were close in May were still close in December, but close doesn't help you on the floor). Both years they competed once or twice at level 4 at the beginning of the season, which is what it took for everyone (kids, parents, coaches) to really see the writing on the wall. They then competed the remainder of the season at level 3, with some wins and some losses, competitive but certainly not sandbagging.

If this is the case with the gym in the OPs post, I still have problems with what is going on there. First they are dropping two full levels, I would question how a coach could have been that far off when putting together this team. Second they are mistreating other athletes in the gym, assuming some of the level 1 and 2 kids will be bumped from their teams through what sounds like no fault of their own. This is just bad business.

 

[imrichhowboutu]

Probably talking about the same team.. From New England, right?

didn't they drop a level because of the crossover thing? They're Lg Sr 3 team also went....so I assume they had girls cross competing.

If this is a gym in CT, it is because they were taking two different level teams that had minor crossovers. The owner wasn't aware of the crossover rule.

 

[MissCongeniality]

I seriously doubt that 99.5% of cheer parents even know what the true role of the USASF is, how it impacts their child, or that they can help make a positive difference in the sport.

And honestly many in the business seem to want to keep it this way. They don't want parents to "know". They want parents to drop off their kids, pay their bills and stay quiet.

 

[MomOf2ThatsMe]

And honestly many in the business seem to want to keep it this way. They don't want parents to "know". They want parents to drop off their kids, pay their bills and stay quiet.

That was my thinking as well...

 

[REA Dad]

How about this, if a level 3 level 4 and a level 5 team all drop down to level 2 who is the favorite to win and why?

Level 5 because the gym owner could hold them hostage with the silly release rule while all the other athletes would be free to switch to a better gym, LOL. Sorry King had to do it!

 

[King]

Level 5 because the gym owner could hold them hostage with the silly release rule while all the other athletes would be free to switch to a better gym, LOL. Sorry King had to do it!

Haha.

 

[NJ Coach]

If this is a gym in CT, it is because they were taking two different level teams that had minor crossovers. The owner wasn't aware of the crossover rule.

That's what I figured. I know they had another team go, and assumed crossovers dictated the level. I believe the same reason was responsible for a gym closer to us.

 

[newcheerdad]

I just have to ask, though there seems to be a strong short term benefit to the team (they suddenly supposedly become the 'favorite' in level 2 and their local competition suddenly looks weak) does anyone actually think in the long run this will benefit that gym?

I understand having a team go against them is frustrating, but do you believe in the long term your gym 'playing it smart and consistent' will actually win overall? Or this year their 'possible' great success will mean that your gym will never win again and will lose all their kids to them?

I think it's a net negative for the teams that do this. We've had some teams that have struggled a little bit at their respective levels this year, and it would be enticing to drop those teams down a level or reconfigure them for NCA. But we're not going to, as far as I know. It seems like it would be horribly unfair to kids who have worked hard to get a particular skill to either remove them from the team or make them drop a level.

It's funny, my daughter does individuals. There are a couple of kids at her level that are really good, and when she goes to a competition and they're not there she's disappointed, even if she wins. She'd rather face the best competition, even if it means her chances of winning are reduced. I'm sure a lot of other kids feel the same way.

 

[King]

I think every level individually has about 3 types of kids.

1. Kids who are new to the level and are just starting to attempt level X sills or maybe do not have level X skills but are trying to get them.

2. Kids who can execute level X skills with a decent level of proficiency.

3. Kids who are overall above level X skills so that performing level X skills is not physically hard for them.

Most gyms create teams with types 1 and 2. Few gyms start the year with type 3 kids on a team because those kids would rather be type 1 or 2 on a higher level team. As the season progresses it may become clear to that team/gym/coach that these type 1 or 2 kids in Level X are not winning, so they decide to go Level Y with type 3 kids.

What I do see happening (which will eventually get rid of sand bagging mattering) is that to compete Level X gyms will start ONLY putting type 3 (and maybe type 2.. maybe) kinds on a team.

What do I mean by that? In 5 to 10 years I don't think it will be uncommon for Level 3 teams to have kids on the team with standing tucks, double downs, and maybe even a few fulls. The drive to be competitive will force everyone to be masters of a level before they even compete it.

This is a bit more of a gymnastic style approach than traditional cheerleading. Cheerleading will eventually become bottom heavy and pyramid ish than what we have now (more of a bell curve). Your kid may just get their tuck but won't even be allowed to go on a level 3 team until they have their tuck, standing 3, punch front, all the body positions, and can full down and twist basket. Until then they are level 2.

 

[tumbleyoda]

I think every level individually has about 3 types of kids.

1. Kids who are new to the level and are just starting to attempt level X sills or maybe do not have level X skills but are trying to get them.

2. Kids who can execute level X skills with a decent level of proficiency.

3. Kids who are overall above level X skills so that performing level X skills is not physically hard for them.

Most gyms create teams with types 1 and 2. Few gyms start the year with type 3 kids on a team because those kids would rather be type 1 or 2 on a higher level team. As the season progresses it may become clear to that team/gym/coach that these type 1 or 2 kids in Level X are not winning, so they decide to go Level Y with type 3 kids.

What I do see happening (which will eventually get rid of sand bagging mattering) is that to compete Level X gyms will start ONLY putting type 3 (and maybe type 2.. maybe) kinds on a team.

What do I mean by that? In 5 to 10 years I don't think it will be uncommon for Level 3 teams to have kids on the team with standing tucks, double downs, and maybe even a few fulls. The drive to be competitive will force everyone to be masters of a level before they even compete it.

This is a bit more of a gymnastic style approach than traditional cheerleading. Cheerleading will eventually become bottom heavy and pyramid ish than what we have now (more of a bell curve). Your kid may just get their tuck but won't even be allowed to go on a level 3 team until they have their tuck, standing 3, punch front, all the body positions, and can full down and twist basket. Until then they are level 2.

This is pretty much how I designed the tumbling class curriculum for our gym. Basically you have to be proficient (pass with 90% or better) on your tumbling evaluation before being promoted to the next level tumbling class. A level 1 tumble graduate is a entry level 2 for cheer, a Level 2 tumble graduate is an entry Level 3 for cheer and so on. This does not guarantee they make the higher level team - only that in regards to tumbling they can do those skills. Entry level meaning they can do everything the current tumble skill level calls for plus a few of the requirements for the next level. Level 3 is the hardest since that is where I am catching everyone up at currently.

My thought being that since very little tumbling is taught during cheer practice it is my job to make sure that these athletes have as many of the required skills necessary so that they can be used tumbling anywhere in a routine. If they can get to Level 3 tumble class when they pass they will be a solid level 4 tumbler. When they finish level 4 they will be a solid Level 5 tumbler - ready to do the more advanced type level 5 passes. This has nothing to do with the cheer level, just the tumbling.

 

[MomOf2ThatsMe]

I think every level individually has about 3 types of kids.

1. Kids who are new to the level and are just starting to attempt level X sills or maybe do not have level X skills but are trying to get them.

2. Kids who can execute level X skills with a decent level of proficiency.

3. Kids who are overall above level X skills so that performing level X skills is not physically hard for them.

Most gyms create teams with types 1 and 2. Few gyms start the year with type 3 kids on a team because those kids would rather be type 1 or 2 on a higher level team. As the season progresses it may become clear to that team/gym/coach that these type 1 or 2 kids in Level X are not winning, so they decide to go Level Y with type 3 kids.

What I do see happening (which will eventually get rid of sand bagging mattering) is that to compete Level X gyms will start ONLY putting type 3 (and maybe type 2.. maybe) kinds on a team.

What do I mean by that? In 5 to 10 years I don't think it will be uncommon for Level 3 teams to have kids on the team with standing tucks, double downs, and maybe even a few fulls. The drive to be competitive will force everyone to be masters of a level before they even compete it.

This is a bit more of a gymnastic style approach than traditional cheerleading. Cheerleading will eventually become bottom heavy and pyramid ish than what we have now (more of a bell curve). Your kid may just get their tuck but won't even be allowed to go on a level 3 team until they have their tuck, standing 3, punch front, all the body positions, and can full down and twist basket. Until then they are level 2.

Perfection before progression...