All-Star Ways To Eliminate Sandbagging

[SarahS]

My only problem is a level 5 athlete credentialing as a level 4 athlete. If they have the level 5 skills then they should be credentialed as level 5. What keeps a coach from credentialing all her level 5 athletes as level 2 athletes for the season just to win?

You can place up to 4 lvl 5 athletes on a team full of lvl 3 athletes with out the average bumping you up to lvl 4.

ETA: This is using a small team of 20 athletes.

See, I don't see this as a problem at all. If an athlete is one of only two in an entire gym with level 5 skills, she has to know that, at that gym, she's not going to compete on a level 5 team that year. She can make a choice to stay at the gym and compete at a lower level (and be credentialed at a lower level) all season, or she can choose to go elsewhere.

There is no way in h-e-double hockey sticks that an entire team of level 5 athletes would agree to compete at level 2 for an entire season. And, to be quite honest with you, I'd actually be okay if they decided to do that (as in the example above, where senior 5s wanted to compete on the senior 2 team) because they'd be publicly stating that, for that season, they would only compete level 2 skills (or level 3 or 1, allowing for the one-up-one-down rule). I don't see a problem with that. Sure, a program might win one year, but they wouldn't be developing their higher-level athletes OR their lower-level athletes, and that would certainly hurt their long-term prospects.

 

[Deleted member 15]

Theoretically that could happen. But we are talking about athletes who are proud to be where they have pushed themselves and coaches that are proud to have helped bring them there. If USASF is publishing a list of athlete credentials do we really think that many athletes would allow themselves to be publicly labeled at two or more levels below what they have achieved? I don't think so, maybe I am wrong. But I do know that even if they did, someone, somewhere would call them out. Probably on this board.

I don't see this happening given the vast majority of athletes are minors.

 

[SarahS]

I don't see this happening given the vast majority of athletes are minors.

Maybe not a published list, but what about photo ID cards that must be shown at check-in (or entrance to warm-ups) that are color-coded by level, so it is, essentially, public?

 

[GreatWhite92]

Theoretically that could happen. But we are talking about athletes who are proud to be where they have pushed themselves and coaches that are proud to have helped bring them there. If USASF is publishing a list of athlete credentials do we really think that many athletes would allow themselves to be publicly labeled at two or more levels below what they have achieved? I don't think so, maybe I am wrong. But I do know that even if they did, someone, somewhere would call them out. Probably on this board.

And it contradicts the other scenario raised. If they declare at Level 3 and are Level 5, they won't be able to compete at Level 5. Then would they leave the gym as predicted?

If they are lvl 5 at a gym with no level 5 team, they have the choice to either stay or leave. But if they truly credential at their level, which i think should be forced...then they have no choice but to leave if the gym doesnt have a lvl 4 team. But if they choose to stay then I think they should have the choice to compete level 3 as long as the average isnt brought up to level 4. How many lvl 5 athletes will choose to compete level 3? Probably no many, but there are some who love their gym and friends at their gym and dont want to leave.

I dont think athletes should be allowed to credential at a lower than they are truly at. Thats the whole point of credentialing. If we allow them to credential at whatever level they want, then what is the point?

 

[TheUltimateFan]

I don't see this happening given the vast majority of athletes are minors.

Hmm. That is a problem. Would the shoe tag thing be considered legal?

As an alternative, I would have to ask....do you think there are enough people on this board that would know enough about another program and their athletes to call them out if they registered below their level?

Regardless, I think SarahS stated it well. If your program asked you to declare and compete 2 or more levels down because you couldn't field a team at your level, odds are you are going to be scoping out a gym who can compete your skills - regardless of whether these rules exist or not.

 

[Deleted member 15]

Maybe not a published list, but what about photo ID cards that must be shown at check-in (or entrance to warm-ups) that are color-coded by level, so it is, essentially, public?

I think having an ID card with a picture and a QR code is the best way to go. An appropriately allowed person scanning the QR code would bring up the rest of the relevant information about the athlete. This way if the card was lost it isn't useful to many people, especially predators. (This was my suggestion to the Technology Team working on the USASF Athlete Registration system)

Having color coded ID cards means alot of card are issued year after year if athletes progress, which may not be a realistic option.

 

[TheUltimateFan]

I think having an ID card with a picture and a QR code is the best way to go. An appropriately allowed person scanning the QR code would bring up the rest of the relevant information about the athlete. This way if the card was lost it isn't useful to many people, especially predators. (This was my suggestion to the Technology Team working on the USASF Athlete Registration system)

Having color coded ID cards means alot of card are issued year after year if athletes progress, which may not be a realistic option.

My kids couldn't even hold onto a cell phone for a year at that age. Odds are they would have to be re-issued every year for a lot of people anyway.

Catch-22. If USASF wants to continue to grow, they need to grow the sport. To grow the sport they need to have it regulated as well, if not better, than other recognized sports. Regulation brings respect.

It takes money to make money. Sub-contract the ID management and distribution process if you don't have the staff. I think our company IDs cost something like $4-5 each, and they involve a security check. Listen to the athletes and coaches who know the sport from the inside on what it takes to make it better. Move on it.

 

[GreatWhite92]

I think having an ID card with a picture and a QR code is the best way to go. An appropriately allowed person scanning the QR code would bring up the rest of the relevant information about the athlete. This way if the card was lost it isn't useful to many people, especially predators. (This was my suggestion to the Technology Team working on the USASF Athlete Registration system)

Having color coded ID cards means alot of card are issued year after year if athletes progress, which may not be a realistic option.

I like the QR option...it would keep the process hopefully simple.

 

[cheermommaRN]

These are really good ideas but don't address the issue that was presented in the previous thread of gyms creating half year teams with the expressed intent of winning a jacket. Even with the credentialing a gym could still hold tryouts and fudge the atheletes registered level to create a new team to take to Nationals.
I understand we don't have the infrastructure in place yet but we at least need to make steps in that direction. As of right now people barely take us seriously. When I try to explain issues such as the one in the level 2 thread they look at me like I am crazy and immediatly go to "well that's why cheer is ridiculous". This is especially true when I try to talk to parents who have kids in other sports. We have to start finding a way to regulate our industry or we will never be considered a sport except by those involved.
Also I didn't say ALL gyms have competed at least once by December I said most have. I'm pretty sure if something like this was instituted gyms would make sure they competed in time to decide (it's not like you don't have plenty of options, comps start in the summer now).
Yes it would make it hard for teams like Weathergirls or Rays Spice of last season but you can't regulate an industry by making everyone happy with every exception. That is part of the problem I see in cheer, everyone wants it to be like Burger King but that's just not possible.

 

[indiglow]

....
Run it like travel hockey, teams form and gyms declare their teams with rosters by December. Most programs have competed once or twice by this time and should know what level they want the team to be at....
Any gym wanting to form a team after the December cutoff must register them in the All Star Rec divisions and an athlete can not be rostered to an AS team and a rec team at the same time....
This accomplishes two things...1. It makes it unappealing to gyms to make half year "Dallas" teams with higher level athletes from their gym but doesn't create an issue for small gyms that use crossovers to their teams. The issue is not a team with a few higher level crossovers, the issue is teams stacking their team with a majority of higher level athletes for the intention of winning Nationals.....

Great idea in theory, but some gyms put together "Dallas" teams for other reasons too. At the middle of summer we put together teams for the whole season (That practice 2x week and start competing in the standard all star divisions in Nov with travel for most teams limited to a 4 hr drive). In Sept/Oct we start 1/2 year teams (that practice 1x a week and start competing in the rec division late Jan/early Feb with travel limited to a 2-3 hour drive). Then at Thanksgiving we let anyone who is on any team in the gym who is not already ready on a "flyaway" team, sign up to be on a add-on team. If we have enough kids we put together a team using average skill level. They practice 1 time a week and compete 2 times (1 local event about 2 weeks before nationals and then at nationals - be it NCA, UCA or some other fun trip). This solves a lot of problems in the gym, mainly allows those who want to travel to travel and those who don't.don't. Our intention is not to win but let those who can afford to travel do so. And this team doesnt always make every year (it did last year, but didnt have enough kids this year).

Sent from my PC36100 using Tapatalk

 

[DJ]

I think having an ID card with a picture and a QR code is the best way to go. An appropriately allowed person scanning the QR code would bring up the rest of the relevant information about the athlete. This way if the card was lost it isn't useful to many people, especially predators. (This was my suggestion to the Technology Team working on the USASF Athlete Registration system)

Having color coded ID cards means alot of card are issued year after year if athletes progress, which may not be a realistic option.

It's easier to have a universal card, with a colored sticker dot. (that can be changed through level progression)

 

[SarahS]

These are really good ideas but don't address the issue that was presented in the previous thread of gyms creating half year teams with the expressed intent of winning a jacket. Even with the credentialing a gym could still hold tryouts and fudge the atheletes registered level to create a new team to take to Nationals.

I don't understand how. The problem that was presented in the other thread was that athletes that normally compete at levels 3, 4, and 5 were competing on a shortened-season level 2 team. If athletes are credentialed at a particular level for a whole year, and allowed only to compete one level up or down, then the team in the other thread would have had several options: they could have competed at level 4, and not let their level 2 athletes compete, or they could have competed at level 3, and not had their level 5 athletes compete. Or, if they knew about this rule at the beginning of the season, they could have credentialed their athletes differently, but they would have been still limited (ie, they could have credentialed their level 5 athlete at level 4, then she could have competed at both level 5 on her normal team and at level 3 on the travel team, or they could have credentialed level 2 athletes at level 3, so they could compete on a level 4 travel team.)

I honestly don't have a problem with this - either way, it would have prevented a true level 5 athlete, who also competes on a level 5 team, from also competing at level 2. Sure, teams could credential level 4 athletes at level 3 to let them then compete at level 2, but if a certain percentage of a team has to be at their "true" credentialed level, then an entire team of level 3s (who were actually level 4s) would not be able to compete at either level 2 or 4.

 

[King]

The issue with a lot of this is that cheerleader skills are highly perishable and fluctuating. An athlete can go from being a level 5 to a level 2 with a good mental block or injury. As well a very natural athlete can get involved in the sport and progress up levels very swiftly.

Not to mention who credentials these athletes will also determine their level. Why wouldnt a gym that likes to stack teams credential their kids down a few levels as well? What would be the difference? If you want outside sources to start credentialing you are going to have to fund it. And how do you track fraud? And is it just based on tumbling? Would you rate someone if you say they had a beautiful back handspring as level 3 because it should be easy to get a RO HS Tuck? And then it seems everyone is just discussing tumbling.

Honestly the best way to encourage people to play the proper level is for the reward at each level to be bigger. All the banners for level 1 are smaller than level 2 (and so on). There are no trophies at level 1, 2, 3, but level 4 and 5 have trophies. No jackets are rewarded except at level 5.

That way the end reward (a national championship) is worth more at the higher level you are. Right now each levels national championship is worth the same, so playing down to win one that is 'easier' produces the same result.

 

[DJ]

Saw this on Facebook this morning from Justin Carrier, it's a great message.
I Hope You Lose by Justin Carrier
by Varsity All Star on Thursday, February 24, 2011 at 4:58pm ·

“If losing didn’t hurt so bad, winning wouldn’t feel so good!”

Today is the day before check-in at NCA/NDA All-Star Nationals, I’ve been working feverishly for weeks, at such a fast pace I’m shocked I haven’t made more mistakes. The clock is ticking down to the start of what will be Varsity’s largest event this season and NCA’s largest event in our 63 year history. My ‘To Do’ list is far from done.

And shockingly enough, I’ve dropped everything to jot down these thoughts that I can’t get out of my head.In preparing for NCA Nationals, I’ve faced a lot of customers and potential customers with questions about why we do things the way we do and why we don’t do things the way they want us to. I’ve been told our decisions are ‘unfair’ more than once this month. As an Event Producer, it can be scary looking a customer in the eye and saying “I disagree with you and if that means I’ll never get your business, I’m gonna have to be OK with that.” Of course, I want EVERYONE at our events and I want everyone to be happy. But the truth is, you can’t be everything to everybody—so you need to be good at being who you are.

Luckily for me, who I am IS who my company is. When it comes to competitions, I believe in COMPETING. That statement sounds simple when positioned that way. Perhaps what I really mean is: when it comes to competitions, I believe in LOSING. So, I want to lose. I want my best friends to lose, I want my kids to lose and… I want you to lose.

When I look back on my childhood, adolescence, and even cheer coaching career, my defining moments weren’t moments of ultimate success. They were moments of ultimate disappointment. (Let me clarify, I had a wonderful childhood. I reread this paragraph and thought I sounded very Debbie Downer, but keep reading. I’ll explain…)

In 3rd grade, I got caught stealing Starbursts from 7-11. My mother made me walk up to the store manager and confess my criminal activity. Grounded. To my bed. An entire week.

In 8th grade, I went in on a scam with friends who came across a long distance access code that allowed me to call anyone in the country for FREE…until my mother received a phone bill one month for $700.

When I was 22, I had to break the news to my incredibly talented 3 time NCA National Champion team that this year’s title would not be going to us—but rather to the obviously less talented 2nd place team because one of our athletes (arguably) threw their head back too far in an arched cradle. What a minor detail to lose an important title over.

All of those moments HURT. They hurt BAD. But all of them helped me evolve into a better person. I haven’t stolen since 3rd grade. I learned in 8th grade that nothing in life is free. And as a coach, I always make sure my athletes’ technique is so flawless, it’ll never be questioned by a judge.

As an industry, we’ve lost sight of the value of the losses, of the competition, and of not winning. And when I say WE, I mean ALL OF US. We’ve all got that short term hunger to WIN. Event Producers want competitions in every saturated market because we want to be the biggest and win. Coaches won’t put an athlete without a standing back tuck on their Level 4 team because they want to win. Parents want to send their kids to a gym because they are known for winning.

Now, of course I’m speaking in generalities. And I’m using the extreme term of ‘WIN,” which could be replaced with the term “COMPETITIVE. “ We all want to be competitive at what we do. And being competitive means you have a shot at winning.

But what if we signed up for a competition to compete in a tough division, already knowing there wasn’t a chance in the world that we’d score higher than 20th place? What if we built our Senior Level 4 teams with athletes that DIDN’T have a standing back tuck, hoping that the other Level 4 teams would give our kids the push they needed to master new skills?

I’m so proud of our crew here at NCA and Varsity. We’ve had to make some tough decisions about divisions, registrations, and crossovers that, on paper, don’t translate to more business. But we’ve stuck by our philosophies that the most important part of a competition IS the competition. Because we stood by our philosophies, our event continues to grow.

It’ll be an interesting weekend. There are over 750 teams representing over 200 programs traveling to Dallas from more than 30 states and 3 countries with a dream of winning, with a chance of losing, but most certainly competing. If I had to guess, I would imagine that some teams are going to leave Dallas on Sunday disappointed with their placement and performance in Finals. That’s AWESOME. Disappointment will fuel self reflection, will increase determination and will motivate athletes to try harder at practice next week.

At the NCA/NDA Coaches Orientations, I’ve jokingly closed some of the sessions with the phrase, “ Good luck, Coaches. For my sake, I hope you ALL WIN this weekend.” Everyone chuckles and go about their day.
How about this year, I close it with “I hope you all lose.” Would that statement from NCA get us more teams? Probably not. But in some ways, I do hope you lose.

Above and beyond any other cheer event, I want NCA/NDA All-Star Nationals to be the pinnacle experience that teaches life lessons about success, failure, commitment, and dedication. If you want to take the easy path or win the easy title, this competition isn’t for you. But if you want to find out how much work you need to put in to be as good as the 1st place team, we might be the perfect fit.

Whether or not you’ll be competing with us in Dallas this weekend, we wish you well at your next competition. And If you don’t take home the title, be sure to leave the venue with that 3rd place trophy and a smile on your face knowing your athletes are the better because of it.

I hope you lose.

 

[SarahS]

The issue with a lot of this is that cheerleader skills are highly perishable and fluctuating. An athlete can go from being a level 5 to a level 2 with a good mental block or injury. As well a very natural athlete can get involved in the sport and progress up levels very swiftly.

Not to mention who credentials these athletes will also determine their level. Why wouldnt a gym that likes to stack teams credential their kids down a few levels as well? What would be the difference? If you want outside sources to start credentialing you are going to have to fund it. And how do you track fraud? And is it just based on tumbling? Would you rate someone if you say they had a beautiful back handspring as level 3 because it should be easy to get a RO HS Tuck? And then it seems everyone is just discussing tumbling.

Honestly the best way to encourage people to play the proper level is for the reward at each level to be bigger. All the banners for level 1 are smaller than level 2 (and so on). There are no trophies at level 1, 2, 3, but level 4 and 5 have trophies. No jackets are rewarded except at level 5.

That way the end reward (a national championship) is worth more at the higher level you are. Right now each levels national championship is worth the same, so playing down to win one that is 'easier' produces the same result.

But, in the event of an injury or a mental block, is it normal to actually change someone's team? I suppose some gyms may operate this way, but that isn't something that I've experienced. You stick with your team, and they help you through the injury/block.

As for who credentials, I think having gyms do credentialing wouldn't be a problem. Again, sure, you could stack the teams a little bit, but not too much - a true level 5 athlete who wanted to compete at level 5 would not be able to compete anything less than level 3, period, if she was credentialed at level 4, and you wouldn't be able to stack an entire level 3 team with true level 5 athletes if there were some "percentage at true level" rule (ie 50% of the team had to be a true, credentialed level 3). You also wouldn't be able to credential all of your level 5 athletes at level 4, again with a percentage at true level rule.