All-Star Ways To Eliminate Sandbagging

[King]

But, in the event of an injury or a mental block, is it normal to actually change someone's team? I suppose some gyms may operate this way, but that isn't something that I've experienced. You stick with your team, and they help you through the injury/block.

As for who credentials, I think having gyms do credentialing wouldn't be a problem. Again, sure, you could stack the teams a little bit, but not too much - a true level 5 athlete who wanted to compete at level 5 would not be able to compete anything less than level 3, period, if she was credentialed at level 4, and you wouldn't be able to stack an entire level 3 team with true level 5 athletes if there were some "percentage at true level" rule (ie 50% of the team had to be a true, credentialed level 3). You also wouldn't be able to credential all of your level 5 athletes at level 4, again with a percentage at true level rule.

It is all based on teams and situations. What if a team was barely under the level 3 limit (so they were level 2). Then a lower level 2 gets injured. And the only fill in is a level 3 that raises their credentials to level 3. What happens?

 

[SarahS]

It is all based on teams and situations. What if a team was barely under the level 3 limit (so they were level 2). Then a lower level 2 gets injured. And the only fill in is a level 3 that raises their credentials to level 3. What happens?

Fair question. Maybe have a "wind-assisted" asterisk added to their score, like they do in track? LOL, I don't know. I mean, you could just do what small gyms or school teams, who have NO one available to fill in in the event of an injury, do: don't have a fill-in. Sometimes that has to happen - you just rework the routine without the person. Crazy idea, I know, but then maybe people also wouldn't stack their teams to the brink of legality, you know?

 

[King]

Fair question. Maybe have a "wind-assisted" asterisk added to their score, like they do in track? LOL, I don't know. I mean, you could just do what small gyms or school teams, who have NO one available to fill in in the event of an injury, do: don't have a fill-in. Sometimes that has to happen - you just rework the routine without the person. Crazy idea, I know, but then maybe people also wouldn't stack their teams to the brink of legality, you know?

Now the real question is how feasible is this whole tracking system? Again, I am understanding and do agree I wish everyone would play by these sort of understood (but not written down) rules. But I just don't think it could ever work or would be enforceable. Because the ones who got around the rules would just kick everyones butt.

 

[cheermommaRN]

But, in the event of an injury or a mental block, is it normal to actually change someone's team? I suppose some gyms may operate this way, but that isn't something that I've experienced. You stick with your team, and they help you through the injury/block.

As for who credentials, I think having gyms do credentialing wouldn't be a problem. Again, sure, you could stack the teams a little bit, but not too much - a true level 5 athlete who wanted to compete at level 5 would not be able to compete anything less than level 3, period, if she was credentialed at level 4, and you wouldn't be able to stack an entire level 3 team with true level 5 athletes if there were some "percentage at true level" rule (ie 50% of the team had to be a true, credentialed level 3). You also wouldn't be able to credential all of your level 5 athletes at level 4, again with a percentage at true level rule.

I can't speak for other gyms but it clearly says in our tryout packet that blocks are not tolerated. Your are also not guaranteed a spot on a team just because you pay tuition. If you get injured or become ill, you run the chance of being made an alternate and not given your spot back.
Kingston addressed the other post, gyms that want to win will credential their kids lower, so technically they could find a way around the system and still create these "NCA" teams. And there are plenty of parents that would agree to it if it meant their Susie was going to be a star and come home with a letterman jacket.

 

[indiglow]

Or what about kids who want to do 2 teams (for any reason: like doing 2 teams, want to base on one and fly on another, be with friends who are a different skill level, etc) and they happen to be on a level 5 team and there isn't an appropriate level 4 team in gym. Would it be ok for them to do a level 3 or 4.2?

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[tumbleyoda]

Fair question. Maybe have a "wind-assisted" asterisk added to their score, like they do in track? LOL, I don't know. I mean, you could just do what small gyms or school teams, who have NO one available to fill in in the event of an injury, do: don't have a fill-in. Sometimes that has to happen - you just rework the routine without the person. Crazy idea, I know, but then maybe people also wouldn't stack their teams to the brink of legality, you know?

Or sometimes you just have to pull out of the competition because you just don't have the right age person or the right position or the right (or close enough to get by) skill level person. Yes one person should not make a team but if it is that one person plus several others that are already being subbed for, that team may not be at it's competitive best and allowing them to compete would not be the best thing. This has happened to us at least twice this year with two different teams. Once weird outside of the gym injuries and another time a nasty flu/stomach bug. This is precisely what most EP's don't want to happen. Refunding monies or shifting them to another event is not always an option. For EP's crossovers not only make "free" money from their fees, (for those that charge them) but also by allowing teams to fill those places to prevent them from pulling out of a competition. It also attempts to ensure other programs that there will at least be someone to compete against which is a whole different, yet related issue.

 

[GreatWhite92]

The issue with a lot of this is that cheerleader skills are highly perishable and fluctuating. An athlete can go from being a level 5 to a level 2 with a good mental block or injury. As well a very natural athlete can get involved in the sport and progress up levels very swiftly.

Not to mention who credentials these athletes will also determine their level. Why wouldnt a gym that likes to stack teams credential their kids down a few levels as well? What would be the difference? If you want outside sources to start credentialing you are going to have to fund it. And how do you track fraud? And is it just based on tumbling? Would you rate someone if you say they had a beautiful back handspring as level 3 because it should be easy to get a RO HS Tuck? And then it seems everyone is just discussing tumbling.

Honestly the best way to encourage people to play the proper level is for the reward at each level to be bigger. All the banners for level 1 are smaller than level 2 (and so on). There are no trophies at level 1, 2, 3, but level 4 and 5 have trophies. No jackets are rewarded except at level 5.

That way the end reward (a national championship) is worth more at the higher level you are. Right now each levels national championship is worth the same, so playing down to win one that is 'easier' produces the same result.

This is a good idea but needs to be relative to age, not giving out youth 1-3 trophies is not going to keep children in the cheer world because they are not being rewarded, at cheersport there was only a handful of youth 4 and 5 teams so I think the youth awards need to be awarded lower....then maybe junior 3-5 and senior 4-5 gets awarded trophies and banners and all level 5 gets jackets.

 

[GreatWhite92]

Of course getting EPs to do that would be hard because they wouldn't want to risk loosing money by not giving awards and running away teams...

 

[TheUltimateFan]

Great idea in theory, but some gyms put together "Dallas" teams for other reasons too. At the middle of summer we put together teams for the whole season (That practice 2x week and start competing in the standard all star divisions in Nov with travel for most teams limited to a 4 hr drive). In Sept/Oct we start 1/2 year teams (that practice 1x a week and start competing in the rec division late Jan/early Feb with travel limited to a 2-3 hour drive). Then at Thanksgiving we let anyone who is on any team in the gym who is not already ready on a "flyaway" team, sign up to be on a add-on team. If we have enough kids we put together a team using average skill level. They practice 1 time a week and compete 2 times (1 local event about 2 weeks before nationals and then at nationals - be it NCA, UCA or some other fun trip). This solves a lot of problems in the gym, mainly allows those who want to travel to travel and those who don't.don't. Our intention is not to win but let those who can afford to travel do so. And this team doesnt always make every year (it did last year, but didnt have enough kids this year).

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In this scenario, would athlete registration also help eliminate the gaps? A true half-year team wouldn't have any full-year registered athletes? I don't know the answer to that, I'm just asking if there is overlap.

 

[SarahS]

Or what about kids who want to do 2 teams (for any reason: like doing 2 teams, want to base on one and fly on another, be with friends who are a different skill level, etc) and they happen to be on a level 5 team and there isn't an appropriate level 4 team in gym. Would it be ok for them to do a level 3 or 4.2?

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Credential the athlete at level 4. Bam.

 

[SheCheers]

Or what about kids who want to do 2 teams (for any reason: like doing 2 teams, want to base on one and fly on another, be with friends who are a different skill level, etc) and they happen to be on a level 5 team and there isn't an appropriate level 4 team in gym. Would it be ok for them to do a level 3 or 4.2?

You say "sorry, that's not how this sport is played anymore." it's not like they can go to another gym and be on 2 teams. it's just not going to be that way anymore. i don't think we should keep the rules so open just to appease a few random athletes that may not get their way. there are always going to be a million "well, what about MY special circumstance" and the answer is "well, you figure out how to make it work".

in a last minute injury situation...you either have a stunt marked or a last minute fill-in and water it down a bit (didn't keep Orange from winning Cheersport).
In a "my gym in too small to follow these rules" situation, you have 4 very small teams instead of 2 teams mixed with a ton of various leveled athletes.

If NCA can have a no crossing levels rule and have, what was it?, 750 teams, and our gym of 92 athletes is able to compete all 5 of it's teams with ZERO corssovers *very* competitively, it can be done.

 

[Deleted member 15]

It's easier to have a universal card, with a colored sticker dot. (that can be changed through level progression)

If the goal is to stop coaches from doing shady things, this won't work. I would be easy for me, as a shady coach, to make that dot whatever color I needed it to be at that moment.

 

[DJ]

If the goal is to stop coaches from doing shady things, this won't work. I would be easy for me, as a shady coach, to make that dot whatever color I needed it to be at that moment.

True, but it's easier for a USASF database to change the color that the athlete is ranked at in the system then issuing new cards when they "Level Up" like a Pokemon.


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[GreatWhite92]

Why would everyone not just credential all their athletes as level 4? Then they could compete level 3,4, and 5. Does no one else see a flaw in letting coaches credential their athletes at whatever level they want? However it would be impossible to credential an athlete any other way without using lots of money and time..

 

[King]

The main key component here is the credentialing. In cheerleading it just doesn't work.