All-Star Ways To Eliminate Sandbagging

[GreatWhite92]

The main key component here is the credentialing. In cheerleading it just doesn't work.

I agree, at first I thought it was a great idea in theory, but after looking at it, it doesn't seem like it would fix the problems at all. It would just make coaches find other way to get around it because we are going to be leaving so many other ways to get around it.

 

[King]

I agree, at first I thought it was a great idea in theory, but after looking at it, it doesn't seem like it would fix the problems at all. It would just make coaches find other way to get around it because we are going to be leaving so many other ways to get around it.

That is the general problem with it. On the surface it sounds fantastic! But when it comes to the details there is no way to regulate it and track it. Enforcing it would be easy enough.

 

[tumbleyoda]

How about since Level 1 and 2 are generally considered IMO by the majority to be beginner levels, there is a no crossing down to those levels. They can cross between each other but that is it. Level 3 and above can cross between each other with the current restrictions in place, and hopefully the EP's will shift their thinking to understand that level play means nothing when several level 5 are on a Level 2 team. Therefore if you did eventually credential athletes you do it starting from the bottom up. If they are not credentialed for those levels, they can not compete. If they are not credentialed - they can not fill in, just do the team for fun, etc. It also allows you to roll it out in a manageable way.

It is not perfect I know. But the thing I feel that gets under everyone skin is to have true beginner level athletes competing against seasoned athletes who not only can perform skills with greater technical expertise, they just usually perform at a much higher level period. Also in the insane push to be on a higher level team within the next 24 hours most athletes and parents would shy away from being credentialed at level 1 or 2 if their true skill level was higher than that Even if a jacket is on the line. Take their ego and use it to fix the system.

 

[newcheerdad]

Now the real question is how feasible is this whole tracking system? Again, I am understanding and do agree I wish everyone would play by these sort of understood (but not written down) rules. But I just don't think it could ever work or would be enforceable. Because the ones who got around the rules would just kick everyones butt.

It's clear that there are programs out there that violate the spirit of fair play.

So what do we suggest be done?

Just continue to allow this to happen, at the expense of programs that peg their teams to an appropriate level? All that does is penalize teams that are trying to play within the spirit of rules. It's a negative to teams that want to keep higher-level athletes but can't keep them because they can't field a competitive team at their level.

Or do we suggest that all teams stack their teams to levels significantly below their capabilities so they can be competitive? See above. If I'm a kid working a full and I have to be on a level 2 team because that's the only level our gym can be competitive at, then guess what? I might be looking to go to the bigger gym that has the level 2, level 3 and level 5 team instead - because even if I'm on level 3 this year, I have the level 5 opportunity down the line.

What else can we do?

The idea that we do nothing about this, or at least not explore ways to curtail the practice, doesn't sit well with me. It feels like we're ignoring the issue in the hopes that it'll go away. There are certainly holes in the credentialing scenario, but I think it can work, and while it wouldn't completely solve the issue it would at least be a step in the direction of solving it.

 

[SarahS]

Why would everyone not just credential all their athletes as level 4? Then they could compete level 3,4, and 5. Does no one else see a flaw in letting coaches credential their athletes at whatever level they want? However it would be impossible to credential an athlete any other way without using lots of money and time..

If you had to have a certain percentage (50%? 2/3?) of a team at their true credentialed level, this idea would not work. You could not field a level 3 team or a level 5 team if everyone were credentialed to level 4.

 

[gymcatmomx2]

Honestly the best way to encourage people to play the proper level is for the reward at each level to be bigger. All the banners for level 1 are smaller than level 2 (and so on). There are no trophies at level 1, 2, 3, but level 4 and 5 have trophies. No jackets are rewarded except at level 5.

I have to tell you that when I read this statement, my heart hurt. There will always be athletes that will never progress from having level 2 skills and only an elite few will EVER have level 5 skills. If this rule were to be put in place it would kill this industry or any EP that instituted it.

 

[SarahS]

Honestly the best way to encourage people to play the proper level is for the reward at each level to be bigger. All the banners for level 1 are smaller than level 2 (and so on). There are no trophies at level 1, 2, 3, but level 4 and 5 have trophies. No jackets are rewarded except at level 5.

I have to tell you that when I read this statement, my heart hurt. There will always be athletes that will never progress from having level 2 skills and only an elite few will EVER have level 5 skills. If this rule were to be put in place it would kill this industry or any EP that instituted it.

Agreed. It *would* be nice if EPs could figure out a way to put the level on the jackets, though, so if a sandbagging team won, they'd have to publicly announce it, ie, "Hey! Nice NCA jacket! But, uhhhhh, aren't you level 5? Why does it say Level 2 National Champions??" I guess the only way to make that happen is to either buy enough jackets to cover the largest team in each division or to have the winners place orders once they've won and wait a bit to actually receive them.

 

[Twinklilstarsmom]

I think each athlete should definitely be credentialed like they do in football. I kind of agree with the level 1 and 2 athletes being just that and that no other higher level athletes be allowed to cross down into those levels except the level 3's crossing down to 2. I think that for level 3, 4 and 5 you should only be allowed to go down one level. For instance level 3's can only go down to level 2 or up to level 4 for crossover purposes. Level 4's cross down to a level 3 or up to a level 5. But Level 5 only cross down to a level 4. So one level down or up than the athlete is actually credentialed for. Now the question is who will handle the credentialing for all these athletes? I suggest that a USASF board be appointed in each region to handle such (for football they have commissioners in each area/region). Each credentialed athlete should have an ID like the photo red cards the football coaches have to carry. I’m just throwing some random ideas out there. I think that once an athlete is credentialed at a senior level 5 they should not be able to go down to Junior or youth because at that level you have mastered skills (allegedly). There are so many dynamics to athlete credentialing, but sometimes you just have to put the rules in place and tweak them from there. As we all know you can’t please everyone. I just think that something needs to be done more sooner than later. JMO

 

[GreatWhite92]

Agreed. It *would* be nice if EPs could figure out a way to put the level on the jackets, though, so if a sandbagging team won, they'd have to publicly announce it, ie, "Hey! Nice NCA jacket! But, uhhhhh, aren't you level 5? Why does it say Level 2 National Champions??" I guess the only way to make that happen is to either buy enough jackets to cover the largest team in each division or to have the winners place orders once they've won and wait a bit to actually receive them.

Thats a nice idea...only a handful of competitions give out nice jackets that people care about...and those competitions probably have more than enough money to make this happen

 

[SarahS]

That is the general problem with it. On the surface it sounds fantastic! But when it comes to the details there is no way to regulate it and track it. Enforcing it would be easy enough.

I really don't think it will be *that* difficult. We already have athlete membership. Add to the database the credentialed level. Allow the coaches/gyms to determine levels. Like I said, if you have a rule that states that at least 50% of each team is at their credentialed level, it would cut down on credentialing athletes at an incorrect level but still allow crossovers, substitutions and progression/regression. Make each kid have a photo ID that must be scanned upon entrance to competition/warm-ups that identifies age and credentialed level. (I see no problem with the coach or gym being responsible for all of the ID cards, by the way, to prevent the inevitable "hey I'm a kid! I totally forgot my ID!" situation.) While it would certainly be more cumbersome than the current situation of, errrr, nothing, it would solve most of these sandbagging problems (including problems with questions about athletes' ages).

 

[aggie1983]

I realize this is not the main topic, but.....
Having the jackets delivered at a later date in order to place levels on them is absolutely one solution that, though more expensive, is feasible. And that is actually one thing that always bothered me, that they do not have division info or even the year. Obviously, it is much more economical to be able to recycle the jackets left over to the next year. I always thought one solution would be to have patches handed out with each jacket that gave the division info and the year. That way those athletes fortunate enough to be multiple NCA winners through the years could even have those patches running down the sleeves of one jacket if they so chose. And as long as I'm making a wishlist, I wish NCA gave out 1st, 2nd and 3rd place medals. To place in the top 3 at NCA is quite an honor and I wish those athletes who came so close had an actual momento of that accomplishment.
Rabbit hole ended. Back to the main topic.

 

[TheUltimateFan]

Can I make a suggestion. The dialogue here is really good but now it is being blown out to the point where you can't see a viable plan through the weeds. Can I suggest you narrow back down the scope of this discussion and focus on breaking down one wall at a time?

Logically that would start with Athlete Credentials, since that seems to be the one element that is integral to every proposed solution? Can you make it work? How? What are the pitfalls? I believe that collectively you have enough experience and knowledge to find a way, and it can work.

 

[WorkToWin]

I think each athlete should definitely be credentialed like they do in football. I kind of agree with the level 1 and 2 athletes being just that and that no other higher level athletes be allowed to cross down into those levels except the level 3's crossing down to 2. I think that for level 3, 4 and 5 you should only be allowed to go down one level. For instance level 3's can only go down to level 2 or up to level 4 for crossover purposes. Level 4's cross down to a level 3 or up to a level 5. But Level 5 only cross down to a level 4. So one level down or up than the athlete is actually credentialed for. Now the question is who will handle the credentialing for all these athletes? I suggest that a USASF board be appointed in each region to handle such (for football they have commissioners in each area/region). Each credentialed athlete should have an ID like the photo red cards the football coaches have to carry. I’m just throwing some random ideas out there. I think that once an athlete is credentialed at a senior level 5 they should not be able to go down to Junior or youth because at that level you have mastered skills (allegedly). There are so many dynamics to athlete credentialing, but sometimes you just have to put the rules in place and tweak them from there. As we all know you can’t please everyone. I just think that something needs to be done more sooner than later. JMO

I think if this were to work athletes should be credentialed solely at a level, as in level 5 for example. Not SENIOR level 5. A senior level 5 athlete that fits the age criteria should be able to be on junior 5 too. Every year athletes should be able to change what level they are credentialed at too, up or down. Many athletes have to take time off, get an injury, or have a mental block that causes them to lose skills.

 

[CGAcheer]

Cheersport banner had the division on it, so our jr 1 still got a huge nice banner but it clearly says jr 1 on it. That would help and still rewards the lower levels for their efforts.

But all of these percentages and having to add a level 1 to bring the avg down or kicking off one kid to bring the percentage right just seems like beauraucratic mess.

I think having rules like nca or even declaring the teams level at the beginning of the season and you have to lose to move down are enough to say hey this is wrong and gyms shouldn't do it and then publicly calling out the gyms on here will hopefully shame the offenders into compliance

 

[King]

Can I make a suggestion. The dialogue here is really good but now it is being blown out to the point where you can't see a viable plan through the weeds. Can I suggest you narrow back down the scope of this discussion and focus on breaking down one wall at a time?

Logically that would start with Athlete Credentials, since that seems to be the one element that is integral to every proposed solution? Can you make it work? How? What are the pitfalls? I believe that collectively you have enough experience and knowledge to find a way, and it can work.

That I feel is the lynch pin of all of this. If athlete credentialing was possible I think everything else would be completely viable. But I still haven't heard how you determine the level of an athlete? Athletes are more than tumbling. It is baskets, stunts, pyramids, jumps, dancing... everything. And certain teams you take role players who aren't level 5 tumblers, let's say, but are level 5 stunters. (this does apply to lower levels as well).