All-Star Worlds Finals 2012 Changes...

[yung.STAR]

Yes, they are set up to provide the non-US teams a way to have higher placements than they would if finalists were determined solely by how well the teams performed. However, just because there was "a reason" why it was set up does not automatically mean everyone agrees with it or that it is necessarily the most fair way to go.

If you feel that a gyms mailing address is relevant, why are you restricting it to country borders? Should they not have allowed both Spirit of Texas and Cheer Athletics into finals together since they are from the same state? Some states aren't as strong as Texas, how the logic different than discriminating by country?

because it is not a NATIONAL competition, it is a WORLDS competition. states make up countries, countries make up the world.

 

[BlueCat]

because it is not a NATIONAL competition, it is a WORLDS competition. states make up countries, countries make up the world.

At our nationals, no distinction is made for the states or any other political boundary line. That was my point.

I guess it is a philosophical distinction. When I hear "world championship", I don't think of it as determining which country is the best, but rather which team is the best. I view the event as being more like Wimbledon, Tour de France, Premier League, etc. Those events are set up to determine the best individuals or teams and the athletes' country of origin doesn't play a competitive factor.

I do think there is a place for a nation vs. nation model (like the soccer/football World Cup). It is called ICU and happens the same weekend as Worlds.

 

[yung.STAR]

At our nationals, no distinction is made for the states or any other political boundary line. That was my point.

I guess it is a philosophical distinction. When I hear "world championship", I don't think of it as determining which country is the best, but rather which team is the best. I view the event as being more like Wimbledon, Tour de France, Premier League, etc. Those events are set up to determine the best individuals or teams and the athletes' country of origin doesn't play a competitive factor.

I do think there is a place for a nation vs. nation model (like the soccer/football World Cup). It is called ICU and happens the same weekend as Worlds.

cheerleading is no where close to a stage though where everyone in every country is on an equal playing level. the USA is a lot more capable and advanced in cheerleading and athletics than any other country.

 

[we_stand_alone]

Ok, im going to be blunt. I am all for international teams coming here to compete, but I think it IS fair that they change the rule about only top three from the US. There are some GREAT teams who deserve that sunday performance who year after year don't receive it because the US is limited on how many teams they can take to finals. I don't think American teams get special treatment at all, in fact I would say the International teams are getting the special treatment, because as much as I want teams from other countries to help us spread cheerleading, the matter of the fact is, that many of those 4th place USA teams from semis deserved a place in finals more than some of the international teams, but they dont get it because we are limited. The truth is, the restriction needs to be taken away. If an international team wants to place top three, then step up your game and truly beat out the American teams. It's harsh but true, and we all know it. Look at Bangkok, they are one of the best teams in the world. Strive up to that, don't get mad because American teams are finally getting the change they deserve if this top three restriction is removed, up your skill. Worlds is the best of the best.

 

[we_stand_alone]

Just to add to my above post, I know the restriction was NOT removed, but added for all teams. I failed to mention that in my above post, but I understand that and support it fully. My point was, now it's even and we are all playing under the same rules, if you want in, step up your game.

 

[cscheerio]

Well i can see both sides of this. I cheered/lived in the states for the past 3 years and I also competed at Worlds in 2008 on a junior team (from Canada when i lived there). Looking back at the video we were NOT level 5 material, and definitely not a Worlds Calibre team (i am not saying this is true of any International teams, just using mine as an example). We made it to finals because there were only 3 Canadian junior 5 teams, and we placed 5th. Technically when someone asks me how i did at Worlds i can say "Oh yes in 2008 i was on one of the top 5 junior teams in the world!" but i know that is absolutely not true at all! I have the video which shows both Saturday and Sunday and when i see the US teams that were cut they were so much better and truly deserved it more than we did! I guess we learned that we were the second best junior 5 team in Canada, but i know that if every team competed and finals was based on the top scores, we most likely would not have even made it. I almost feel that i took 5th from someone
I 100% believe that the top scores from the division should continue on and rightfully place. If international teams want to place better, then they will have to work for it just like the US teams do. I understand that international teams may not have the facilities and opportunities like US teams, but it is still possible! Look at Bangkok! I've noticed in the past year that international teams are already realizing what they need to do not just to place higher, but to rightfully place above the US teams.

I totally agree with this, however i do think its cool to know where you placed in your country. Besides Flyers from Quebec won worlds this past season and teams like Vancouver Allstars for example can totally make it to finals on their own merit. I'm 100% ok with getting 23rd out of 34 teams

 

[PCMKarma]

Ok, im going to be blunt. I am all for international teams coming here to compete, but I think it IS fair that they change the rule about only top three from the US. There are some GREAT teams who deserve that sunday performance who year after year don't receive it because the US is limited on how many teams they can take to finals. I don't think American teams get special treatment at all, in fact I would say the International teams are getting the special treatment, because as much as I want teams from other countries to help us spread cheerleading, the matter of the fact is, that many of those 4th place USA teams from semis deserved a place in finals more than some of the international teams, but they dont get it because we are limited. The truth is, the restriction needs to be taken away. If an international team wants to place top three, then step up your game and truly beat out the American teams. It's harsh but true, and we all know it. Look at Bangkok, they are one of the best teams in the world. Strive up to that, don't get mad because American teams are finally getting the change they deserve if this top three restriction is removed, up your skill. Worlds is the best of the best.

i totally agree , they basically say "sorry you cant make finals because we only take 3 us teams EVEN THOUGH you're better than the other countries teams who do make finals" why put teams in finals who have NO chance of winning? it should be the BEST OF THE BEST just like the senior divisions.... 10 of the best international teams fighting even if 8/10 are from the US why punish the US teams because they're more advanced... i personally think it will make the international teams work harder and become more advanced in cheerleading... if they want to make it about "countries" then they need to make a separate division for that.... put together 1 US TEAM to compete against another countries team! THOUGH i am happy that the international teams have a chance of competing TWICE at worlds in 2012 , it makes the trip WORTH IT!! because WORLDS is NOT cheap!!!! especially when you live 5 1/2 hours away by plane... its an expensive plane ticket and disney is expensive itself.... i think some of these changes will make people very unhappy... and i also think those who recieve at-large bids in the small senior and small coed divisions will probably turn them down if they dont think they can make it out of prelims.... it means most teams will be arriving on wednesday now... which means more money from families.... will be an interesting year...

 

[Emily Jane]

International (outside of the US) teams have not made it to finals because of the rule too. I do understand all of your points, but realistically I think some of the US teams that go wouldn't stand a chance of making finals if it was changed to the club division rules. Quite frankly, some of the US teams don't have a chance of beating TG/SOT/CA either.

 

[imrichhowboutu]

I'm almost positive that every year there has been an international team in the top 10 of the division before it is broken down to only 3 per country also

 

[ztaprincess]

I do agree with @we_stand_alone that is isn't the US teams who are getting the special treatment it actually seems it is the international teams that are getting that treatment. We now only have 3 US teams in finals and have a scoresheet that is built around less tumbling to favor them.

 

[Emily]

I'm not from the US and would still favor that the top-3 from each country rule disappears. You either beat other gyms with your skills, or you don't - and if you don't, you gotta work harder! It is hard with what we got to beat US-gyms (like little to no equipment, etc.) but it is not impossible. There are teams from abroad that beat US-teams. And to seriously be able to reach the level US-teams have will take us a couple of years.

I think right now the only thing that is unfair is, that there are way more competitions to get bids to worlds in the US than abroad. Teams from Germany have exactly one single chance to get a bid. It is one competition on pentecost that determines which teams get a bid (it is 4 bids - 2 in our junior division which is about your senior division and 2 in our senior division which is your open division). If an US-team doesn't get a bid, they simply go to the next competition to get their bid there. It seems to me that every team that goes for a bid gets one - some earlier in the season, some later. For us the only other chance to get a bid would be to travel to the US (and seriously - way to much of an expense to go for a bid there). Any other ep that gives out bids in Europe has them limited to certain countries - so its useless to travel European competitions for bids. I'd love for teams from Europe to have more opportunities for getting bids.

 

[BlueCat]

cheerleading is no where close to a stage though where everyone in every country is on an equal playing level. the USA is a lot more capable and advanced in cheerleading and athletics than any other country.

My point is that the country of origin should have nothing to do with the event whatsoever. It is gym vs gym, not country vs. country. ICU is country vs. country.

I would agree that not everyone is exactly the same in terms of advancement in the sport. That same exact thing is true from gym to gym within the US. There are few US gyms that are even remotely in the same league as Top Gun. That doesn't mean that Top Gun should get a "you are too good so lets drop your score to make it fair" deduction on their scoresheet.

 

[kristenthegreat]

It's so easy to say 'Well they need to boost up their tumbling.' Remember how on that thread we all whined and vented about how annoying it was when judges write 'needs more doubles' and we were all 'Duh. Don't you think I'd put them in if I had them?!' Kinda the same thing..

Although they are improving in their own right, the coed stunt team champ at ICU was from Finland, I believe, Canada is FAST approaching as an all-around contender (and oh look, they are developing stronger programs at ALL ages/levels and have gyms with spring floors/tumbling gear that's JUST for them), Bangkok continues to put stellar routines out year after year (even though tumbling is still a factor. Wonder what their facilities look like..). They're getting there, and who knows? Worlds Scoresheets haven't even come OUT yet, so we don't know if they took my stellar suggestion and slightly raised the emphasis on tumbling to slowly balance things out as the years go by!

But I agree with whoever said that not ALL the US teams who get kept out of finals would have a better shot than some International teams. I remember some teams from last year who were maybe a tuck or so away from being the same tumbling-wise as International (Not from the US) teams (HEY, Open 4. Lookin' good..)..

 

[BlueCat]

But I agree with whoever said that not ALL the US teams who get kept out of finals would have a better shot than some International teams. I remember some teams from last year who were maybe a tuck or so away from being the same tumbling-wise as International (Not from the US) teams (HEY, Open 4. Lookin' good..)..

I don't think anyone has suggested that all US teams should necessarily make it in. They should still have a high enough score to qualify. I think the discussion was mainly in reference to the potential that some strong US teams could be the 4th, 5th, 6th highest score in semi-finals, but still be eliminated in favor of teams that finished 20 places lower than them. This is not uncommon in IOC5.

I would suggest perhaps as a compromise taking the top 3 per country, plus the next highest 3 scoring teams (if they had finished in the top 25% of the division)

 

[Emily Jane]

I would suggest perhaps as a compromise taking the top 3 per country, plus the next highest 3 scoring teams (if they had finished in the top 25% of the division)

I really like this idea!