All-Star Your Daughter Won't Fly Forever

[Natalia5]

No, just no, on the losing weight. I have seen insane eating disorders and methods utilized (often promoted by the parent) in my CPs time in cheer. If you ask my CP who was one of those flyers who moved to beast base when she grew, she would tell you that it often isn't the "size" of the flyer as much as it is body control. She would take a stout strong flyer who can really pull herself up than a skinny string bean wet noodle. In fact she once had one such (stout) flyer who she said practically felt like she was self levitating.

As another poster suggested, I think with any group of adolescents it is better to just discuss healthy eating habits vs weight loss, and it should be with everyone, not just the flyers. Kids this age of all sizes are already usually very aware of every perceived "imperfection" real or not.

Yes. The first paragraph for sure, especially the part about having good body control and the wet noodles. You see a lot of the latter at level 1 especially when you have a mish-mosh junior team of 8-13 year olds. Now, that I have typed this you know this topic can easily feed into the crazy gray area age ranges per division except for senior which I think now has a clear top and bottom. Finally, maybe they should not use the word "flyer" until you are at a more higher level IDK say Level 3 with more technical extensions, because let's face it, at level 1 the "flyer" is only the "flyer" because they are the smaller people on the team. It has nothing to do with skill just "I have this cool pyramid I want to put up and you guys are small so let's do this" The "flyer" is really not "flying" but just behind held - up long enough to hit. By then it is too late the CP is now Gabi Butler in their head while not realizing they got the gig because they were the smaller of the group at that time... So yeah maybe the cheer world should find a new term for that position until after puberty is done. IDK

 

[TealArmySparkle]

To be honest I don't really agree with the whole idea of pulling a perfectly capable flyer due to their height. I am a base at 5"2 and my flyer is at least 5"6. She is incredible at what she does and even though she should figuratively be the one basing me, it works so we aren't changing it. College cheer is thankfully a different animal though and I'm far happier basing girls who are taller and weigh more as at least they've got good flying technique and can hold their weight (something which a little twelve year old Suzie on an all-star team tends to be incapable of in any experience I've had).

 

[cheer25mom]

To be honest I don't really agree with the whole idea of pulling a perfectly capable flyer due to their height. I am a base at 5"2 and my flyer is at least 5"6. She is incredible at what she does and even though she should figuratively be the one basing me, it works so we aren't changing it. College cheer is thankfully a different animal though and I'm far happier basing girls who are taller and weigh more as at least they've got good flying technique and can hold their weight (something which a little twelve year old Suzie on an all-star team tends to be incapable of in any experience I've had).

I don't think you need to pull a flyer that is working due to height, but I think it's ok to pull one that isn't working because she is too tall,or heavy. Most wouldn't hesitate to replace a base that wasn't doing their job.


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[HappyGirls]

[QUOTE="cheer25mom, post:

We are just going to have to agree to disagree about this. I have seen what my husband has been through with it, and that's enough for me. Lifelong pain, surgeries, etc.

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Totally understand. Personal experience is a strong shaper of viewpoint. In the absence of the evidence you are citing, my personal opinion holds...you make valid points about angle, etc, however.

 

[TealArmySparkle]

I'm definitely not disputing that but due to personal preference and experience, the older and taller flyers Ive had have always been easier to base due to the fact that they control their body positions instead of having to throw around a child that is like a rag doll. Lifting a 12 year old who sits on you, bends their knees and doesn't hold their weight is far more difficult than a flyer who does their job and is taller. unfortunately due to the climate of all star cheer that I was previously in, the small flyers despite having bad technique were kept in the air.

I don't think you need to pull a flyer that is working due to height, but I think it's ok to pull one that isn't working because she is too tall,or heavy. Most wouldn't hesitate to replace a base that wasn't doing their job.


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[cheer25mom]

Not a study, but an article that mentions the limits on amounts of weight for children I am talking about.
The Dangers of Overtraining Youth | ACTIVE

It's an article about overuse, but it also talks about how too much weight can be dangerous. Quotes a doctor saying there is a finite limit to what kids vs adults can do, lift, etc.
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[cheer25mom]

I'm definitely not disputing that but due to personal preference and experience, the older and taller flyers Ive had have always been easier to base due to the fact that they control their body positions instead of having to throw around a child that is like a rag doll. Lifting a 12 year old who sits on you, bends their knees and doesn't hold their weight is far more difficult than a flyer who does their job and is taller. unfortunately due to the climate of all star cheer that I was previously in, the small flyers despite having bad technique were kept in the air.

But, a small flyer with good technique is easier than one 20-30 lbs heavier with the same technique.


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[nicolee]

Not a study, but an article that mentions the limits on amounts of weight for children I am talking about.
The Dangers of Overtraining Youth | ACTIVE

It's an article about overuse, but it also talks about how too much weight can be dangerous. Quotes a doctor saying there is a finite limit to what kids vs adults can do, lift, etc.
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To be honest, although that's a good article, I'm not sure it's entirely relevant to a discussion about flyer size.

It talks about powerlifting, and standard weightlifting, which is very different to lifting a dynamic, living 'weight' as in basing a flyer. We can't just talk about a finite level of mass that a child can lift, because in cheerleading there is no such thing. The 'weight' that the bases have to lift depends greatly on the ability of the flyer to hold their own weight, which can decrease the stress on bases.
And it also focuses on prepubescent kids, in the context of their bone growth.

Sorry for the nitpicking, maybe it's the baby scientist in me that can't help critically analyzing an article.

 

[oncecoolcoachnowmom]

But, a small flyer with good technique is easier than one 20-30 lbs heavier with the same technique.


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Yes.

This is going to sound awful for those who have not coached but you want to work smart. Not extra hard for no reason.

For example, I am not pulling 90 lb + 4'9 Kelly who is awesome for 5'6 + 130 lb Becky who is awesome.

If she is doing the job just fine and is not a broken nose waiting to happen, I am not going to replace. Simple physics.

It is literally the same concept as my baby brother. He played HS football. He is also 6'6 and about 260 (my stepfather was very tall, his dad.) He is literally a tree. He is obviously (you guessed it) a lineman. He is NOT a quarterback. Or a running back. People of his build are needed on the line.

See also: I was even shorter when I actively cheered. When the coaches were switching kids in and out looking for backspots, no one was like, "Hey you who is 4'9, come back this elite stunt!"

Like, my feet didn't even touch the ground in the desks, y'all. You did not want me in charge of whether you hit the mat or not.

 

[cheer25mom]

To be honest, although that's a good article, I'm not sure it's entirely relevant to a discussion about flyer size.

It talks about powerlifting, and standard weightlifting, which is very different to lifting a dynamic, living 'weight' as in basing a flyer. We can't just talk about a finite level of mass that a child can lift, because in cheerleading there is no such thing. The 'weight' that the bases have to lift depends greatly on the ability of the flyer to hold their own weight, which can decrease the stress on bases.
And it also focuses on prepubescent kids, in the context of their bone growth.

Sorry for the nitpicking, maybe it's the baby scientist in me that can't help critically analyzing an article.

The discussion we were having was about lifting as a supplement to lifting heavier flyers. It wasn't intended to apply to lifting kids, but that lifting large amounts of weights isn't good for kids.


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[Quotation]

Yes.

This is going to sound awful for those who have not coached but you want to work smart. Not extra hard for no reason.

For example, I am not pulling 90 lb + 4'9 Kelly who is awesome for 5'6 + 130 lb Becky who is awesome.

Yes, it could be that Kelly is a wet noodle but if she is doing the job just fine and is not a broken nose waiting to happen, I am not going to replace. Simple physics.

It is literally the same concept as my baby brother. He played HS football. He is also 6'6 and about 260 (my stepfather was very tall, his dad.) He is literally a tree. He is obviously (you guessed it) a lineman. He is NOT a quarterback. Or a running back. People of his build are needed on the line.

See also: I was even shorter when I actively cheered. When the coaches were switching kids in and out looking for backspots, no one was like, "Hey you who is 4'9, come back this elite stunt!"

Like, my feet didn't even touch the ground in the desks, y'all. You did not want me in charge of whether you hit the mat or not.

Being a wet noodle in the air is the exact opposite of "doing the job just fine". a wet noodle flyer just means that the bases have to do even more work to keep her in the air. a smaller flyer shouldn't be put in the air if she isn't doing her job, it's not fair to the rest of the stunt group. whether we like it or not being a flyer is a coveted position, since only 1/4 of athletes are in the air. I don't think someone should be given this position if they aren't going to do their job, just because they're tiny, especially if there are other athletes that are willing to put in the effort needed to be a good flyer.

 

[oncecoolcoachnowmom]

Being a wet noodle in the air is the exact opposite of "doing the job just fine". a wet noodle flyer just means that the bases have to do even more work to keep her in the air. a smaller flyer shouldn't be put in the air if she isn't doing her job, it's not fair to the rest of the stunt group. whether we like it or not being a flyer is a coveted position, since only 1/4 of athletes are in the air. I don't think someone should be given this position if they aren't going to do their job, just because they're tiny, especially if there are other athletes that are willing to put in the effort needed to be a good flyer.

That is what I meant to say. Trying to type and do three things at once.

If she's a total wet noodle, pull her yes. But I am not keen on switching girls out when they are doing fine.

 

[CLynn]

For example, I am not pulling 90 lb + 4'9 Kelly who is awesome for 5'6 + 130 lb Becky who is awesome.

yup. Even if Becky has been your flyer, and Kelly is new but you can only choose one I'd choose Kelly. Becky can fill another role, but it would be much more difficult for Kelly.

 

[nicolee]

The discussion we were having was about lifting as a supplement to lifting heavier flyers. It wasn't intended to apply to lifting kids, but that lifting large amounts of weights isn't good for kids.


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I understand, but I disagree.
I don't think you can infer that kids shouldn't lift large weights from that article. And I personally don't think it's quite that simple.

 

[cheer25mom]

I understand, but I disagree.
I don't think you can infer that kids shouldn't lift large weights from that article. And I personally don't think it's quite that simple.

Go back and read the whole discussion. I wasn't inferring anything from one article. The article was ONE piece of a larger discussion on kids and weightlifting. It is just the quickest example I can readily find on the internet. There is a LOT more literature on the subject, and pretty much every source presented agrees that maximal lifting is bad for kids. A weight they can only lift once or twice is unsafe. Where the disagreement lies is how much is too much in sub maximal lifting.


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