All-Star 3 Major Changes To Address 3 Major Problems

[Mclovin]

Also. How do we know they wont require that. There needs be a program put in place. You can't just arbitrarily say you're qualified and you're not. Once they put something into effect the skills could come back with proper instruction.

What you're saying is allow people to instruct the skills even if they're not qualified until the usasf puts a true certification on place?

Why wouldnt you remove the instruction until there is a class or whatever to evaluate coaches?

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I am not saying just let people instruct even if they're not qualified. I am saying MAKE them get qualified or don't allow that gym to compete in a USASF sanctioned event.

If I knew that banning these skills was temporary, say for just a year, so that the USASF could get some mandates in place, I could swallow that. But what is going to happen (if these rules stick) is that they will ban them, and then do absolutely nothing to fix the real problem. Or if they do attempt to fix the real problem, those skills will never be added back in to our skill set. As it stands the USASF feels they can't even regulate membership into their rules. They can't regulate standardized scoring or other things that will be WAY easier than forcing gyms to get proper training. So how can I feel confident that they can make this happen? Since I can't, my opinion is ban the gyms that refuse to get the training and don't punish the gyms that are producing safe, positive progressions.

 

[ztaprincess]

I am not saying just let people instruct even if they're not qualified. I am saying MAKE them get qualified or don't allow that gym to compete in a USASF sanctioned event.

If I knew that banning these skills was temporary, say for just a year, so that the USASF could get some mandates in place, I could swallow that. But what is going to happen (if these rules stick) is that they will ban them, and then do absolutely nothing to fix the real problem. Or if they do attempt to fix the real problem, those skills will never be added back in to our skill set. As it stands the USASF feels they can't even regulate membership into their rules. They can't regulate standardized scoring or other things that will be WAY easier than forcing gyms to get proper training. So how can I feel confident that they can make this happen? Since I can't, my opinion is ban the gyms that refuse to get the training and don't punish the gyms that are producing safe, positive progressions.

Shimmy x100

If they can't enforce some of the simple rules they already have or implement things which are much easier I have no faith in them to fix this issue. When they actually start working towards it is when I will believe they will do anything about it.

 

[CGAcheer]

How many kids are being punished here? A few hundred out of hundreds of thousands? There are still plenty of skills that these athletes can work on and develop.


How about front handspring front full step out RO HS Double. I've never seen a cheerleader do that yet it is completely legal and extremely difficult. Have at it kids.

I forgot the quote or where it came from but it was about the holocaust I think- something like
When they came for the blacks, I said nothing, when they came for the gypsies I said nothing, then they came for the jews and still I said nothing, then they came for me and there was no one left to say anything

 

[kristenthegreat]

I realized one of the major problems I have is that they are so SPECIFIC. They took a few skills (one that a growing number of athletes have or are working- standing full) out, without REALLY addressing the issue. Yes, those two skills can be dangerous, but so can any hip over head rotation if not done properly. That girl who ended up paralyzed in a wheelchair got that way throwing a back TUCK (yes it was in high school and on hard mats, but regardless). Congratulations, not kids just won't do those few skills, meanwhile injuries will continue to happen at the rate they do because it's not so much the SKILLS we're doing that cause injuries, it's untrained coaches, unsafe surfaces, unconditioned bodies, improper warmups, and freak occurrences that cause them. I've hurt myself most seriously RUNNING as compared to any other skill I've thrown..

 

[Mr May]

So the changes made (good or bad) were to address 3 major problems.

1. Injuries are increasing in allstar cheerleading and cheerleading has issues getting insured. Hence new tumbling rules.

2. Cheerleading numbers have decreased last year drastically. Changing ages and divisions in theory open up the sport and make it a little bit more attractive to bring in new people (in theory).

3. The image portrayed of allstar cheer in the media is negatively impacting the sport (or so it is believed). Hence the image rules.

How should these problems have been addressed?

1. it should be a privelage to own a gym and teach kids. not everyone is qualified, not everyone should do it. there should be a lengthy process to be able to own a gym. not only background checks, but qualifications, proof of funds etc. This would lower insurance premiums that USASF is offering to gyms if they can prove, via the lengthy process that said person is qualified to own and run said gym.

2. getting third parties and vendors to stop being so greedy. the amount of money it costs to have high quality music, routines etc has tripled in ten years. cost of living has not so there is zero reason for it outside of, well i can. 75% of what our kids pay yearly is for the large sums of music, choreo, camps, etc etc. i also believe connecting back to my first point that if the numbers of gyms per capita were limited, we would gain overall numbers as many mom and pop shops that shouldnt have opened in the first place would not give people a bad taste in their mouth towards cheer. gym owners would do whats right by there kids vs whats needed for their business.

3. we need to stand up for what we are. the reason we have an image issue is that everytime someone says were doing something wrong we tuck tail and run. we need to make educated comments about the reasoning behind why we wear what we wear. mid drifts, skin on skin contact in stunting is safer than skin to cloth. big make up. its stage make up, we compete under lights its needed. etc etc. beach volleyball players hardly wear anything, but its accepted as they say it is part of the sport and stick with it. were too pc and care to much about what other people think.

 

[Ceacea]

I fear just getting more coaches qualified will not solve the problem either. We have 2 large gyms in our city and several small ones. Most of these gyms have qualified coaches who know that technique is important. But technique will not trump pride or money. A kid gets their running double and right away they have to start standing to double because every team needs that half + 1 to max out the scores. The team that maxes out usually wins and will then draw athletes from the other gyms. Its their intention and its a constant war concerning who has the better team, most skill/wins ect. No amount of certification will change this. They push push push! Get it now we need it by this comp or that comp. My daughter did gymnastics for 7 years and you know how many knee injuries I saw...not one. A few ankle sprains and a couple kids with a little back pain that with minimum treatment got better quickly. She has been doing all star for 5 years and guess how many I've seen..countless. Along with ankles, backs, hips, broken noses and even the cuncussions are out of control. The only thing that will really change things for our gyms is the heavy deduction for poor execution. And even then it may not change it. :-(

 

[cheerfan27]

Does everyone thing a good certification program can just happen overnight? NO.

THE USASF KNOWS THAT QUALIFIED COACHES ARE THE PROBLEM, not the skill. You need to stop something dead in its tracks if injury rates are above the norm. They clearly have data that shows these skills are more "risky" then others. If you say they aren't, then you don't know the definition of risk. Now that these skills have been made illegal, the USASF can focus on developing a structured qualification process rather and not have to worry about the injuries that are happening.

Where did they get all of there statistics on injuries? Hospitals, schools records, allstar programs, I question if they are only getting a snapshot of allstar cheerleading and not the full picture.

 

[fullinitup]

i feel like so many of these injuries in tumbling are happening because skills arent mastered before being pushed to do the next skill and athletes are NOT being conditioned very little if any at all. It's a shame and NO its not just happening at these little no name gyms its happening at the big names too.

 

[viralscorp]

Where did they get all of there statistics on injuries? Hospitals, schools records, allstar programs, I question if they are only getting a snapshot of allstar cheerleading and not the full picture.

They better come out with this report. There are many smart people around who can at least validate the statistics cited or call it bs. By not showing us the information they used to make their decisions, they are telling us we are too stupid to see things for what they're worth... I am glad the ASGA called for the release of the report.

 

[kristenthegreat]

COMPLETE sidenote: what's happened to the filter? Did a board modification turn them off or something?

I'm going to completely reiterate my award-winning idea until someone makes it a rule: stiffer penalties on sloppy execution and botched skills. While that strategy stops things already in motion, develop a better coach credentialing system to address skills ACROSS THE BOARD (not just level 5- injuries occur in every level!!), both tumbling AND stunting. Better industry..

 

[imrichhowboutu]

Everyone here needs to realize that it is hard to fix the problem of uneducated coaches and judges. You need to train them. If people are getting injured by these skills then you need to take it away until you can get a program in place.

Yes we need to require coaches get certified before they can teach a skill. That is how gymnastics does it. You must have a certification if anyone on your team is going to be attempting a certain skill. We could definitely do that in Allstar. HOWEVER, it will take time. There are so many things that go into a system like this. It isn't an overnight process.


Also, the reason why these skills have been banned is because they are HARD skills to teach. I can probably get my mom to instruct someone how to stretch double down before i could get her to instruct a standing full. And i think everyone would agree that it is easier to be fully trained in stunts then in tumbling. Next in tumbling, harder skills are harder to teach and require more training. Training that not many people in the country have.

So while yes a standing tuck being instructed by someone who isn't qualified has MORE risk then one that is taught by a qualified instructor, the skills that were removed from the legal set carry THE MOST risk when taught by unqualified instructors.

If you think that a standing tuck is just as risky as a standing full, then you need to look into what risk means.

 

[munchkinmom]

I forgot the quote or where it came from but it was about the holocaust I think- something like
When they came for the blacks, I said nothing, when they came for the gypsies I said nothing, then they came for the jews and still I said nothing, then they came for me and there was no one left to say anything

First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out--
Because I was not a Socialist.
Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out--
Because I was not a Trade Unionist.
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out--
Because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for me--and there was no one left to speak for me.

Had this quote in mind Wednesday with the discussions on NFHS and Pop Warner. Obvioiusly nothing near what inspired the quote, but the truth is people tend to fair better when they stick together.

Again, that would only be Pop Warner. For some areas, that may be all they have. Maybe for areas that have really good level 4 Pop Warner teams, other rec teams will come about. Right now there are many EP's that offer rec teams the opportunity to compete USASF level 4 that have nothing to do with Pop Warner.

The next question is, if everyone else keeps cutting higher level skills, will USASF feel they are under pressure to do it too? If they cut them, then what?

[/quote]

 

[yojaehs]

Everyone here needs to realize that it is hard to fix the problem of uneducated coaches and judges. You need to train them. If people are getting injured by these skills then you need to take it away until you can get a program in place.

Yes we need to require coaches get certified before they can teach a skill. That is how gymnastics does it. You must have a certification if anyone on your team is going to be attempting a certain skill. We could definitely do that in Allstar. HOWEVER, it will take time. There are so many things that go into a system like this. It isn't an overnight process.


Also, the reason why these skills have been banned is because they are HARD skills to teach. I can probably get my mom to instruct someone how to stretch double down before i could get her to instruct a standing full. And i think everyone would agree that it is easier to be fully trained in stunts then in tumbling. Next in tumbling, harder skills are harder to teach and require more training. Training that not many people in the country have.

So while yes a standing tuck being instructed by someone who isn't qualified has MORE risk then one that is taught by a qualified instructor, the skills that were removed from the legal set carry THE MOST risk when taught by unqualified instructors.

If you think that a standing tuck is just as risky as a standing full, then you need to look into what risk means.

However a standing tuck taught by an unqualified instructor is "riskier" than a standing double being taught by a qualified instructor.

 

[tumbleyoda]

^
And because the greater percentage of the population would reach the level of a standing tuck as opposed to a standing double your numbers just increased again.

 

[newcheerdad]

So the changes made (good or bad) were to address 3 major problems.

1. Injuries are increasing in allstar cheerleading and cheerleading has issues getting insured. Hence new tumbling rules.

2. Cheerleading numbers have decreased last year drastically. Changing ages and divisions in theory open up the sport and make it a little bit more attractive to bring in new people (in theory).

3. The image portrayed of allstar cheer in the media is negatively impacting the sport (or so it is believed). Hence the image rules.

How should these problems have been addressed?

1. I'm not sold on the idea that insurance is the issue here - when MMA events have little problems getting liability insurance, it seems sketchy to me that cheer events or gyms are suddenly having problems doing so. Unless insurance companies have specifically said "eliminate skills x, y and z or we will stop insuring you or jack up your rates" due to their internal risk analysis, I think the insurance issue is a bit of a red herring. If the issue is that cheer insurance is expensive due to a lack of players in the market, I don't think that eliminating skills suddenly reduces that burden.

2. The issues with cheer participation have little to do with rules and everything to do with barriers of entry. I can remember the giant back-and-forth I had with BlueCat about the fact that all-star cheer is far more expensive at the lower levels when compared to other sports. Even half-year teams or entry-level teams are probably 2-3 times more expensive than other sports. And in areas where pop warner or rec teams aren't prevalent, there's no feeder program for all-stars. The idea that changing the age grid is a difference in a parent popping down $2K a year to let their child cheer makes no sense. These issues are far more economic than most people want to admit.

3. The image rules are a little trickier. At some level, I get the general idea (which I'm sure came from that slanted "survey" the USASF put out a while back) that the perception of cheer is that it's too showy and blingy. It's too close to the stereotype, too close to "Toddlers & Tiaras" and "Dance Moms". So yeah, I don't have objection to creating some kind of image guidelines and uniform rules. The problem is that the rules are too vague in some cases, too onerous in others - if you think that when push comes to shove an EP is going to penalize a team whose music *may* be offensive and whose uniforms *may* be violating guidelines, you're fooling yourselves.