All-Star Can We Avoid Sandbagging Through The Athlete Tracking System?

[mommadonna]

I've thought long and hard about this. One thing I thought of is using a rule of percentages. In other words, a gym may use crossovers, but only a percentage of the team can be made up of these athletes, say, for example, 15%. This may conceivably still help small gyms have teams that are appropriate for the athletes that come through their doors, but help to prevent the kind of blatant sandbagging for wins that has become so much more rampant lately. (At one comp, we saw a level 3 team turn around and compete the same routine with the same athletes at the next level with the stunts and tumbling modified to level 4. We're talking same dance, pyramid, the whole works. ) Maybe by using percentages, crossovers can be used as intended and not as a way to work around the system for the win. Just an idea...

 

[rosebud]

I've thought long and hard about this. One thing I thought of is using a rule of percentages. In other words, a gym may use crossovers, but only a percentage of the team can be made up of these athletes, say, for example, 15%. This may conceivably still help small gyms have teams that are appropriate for the athletes that come through their doors, but help to prevent the kind of blatant sandbagging for wins that has become so much more rampant lately. (At one comp, we saw a level 3 team turn around and compete the same routine with the same athletes at the next level with the stunts and tumbling modified to level 4. We're talking same dance, pyramid, the whole works. ) Maybe by using percentages, crossovers can be used as intended and not as a way to work around the system for the win. Just an idea...

wow, the movie Bring It On popped into my head when you said they did the exact same routine just with the next level stunts and tumbling! Spirit Fingers!!! Shame on that gym for doing that! As a parent I would be very disappointed that I was spending my money at a gym that didn't think they needed to create 2 different routines for the different levels. I am sure nothing is in place for this right now at the different events but they should disqualify a team for doing the exact same routine.

 

[5-6-7-8]

There was a thread about sandbagging / athlete registration about a year ago. Ill see if I can dig it up later.

I think something does need to be done, especially now with the Summit (for those who choose to attend anyway.)

Similar to the softball example above, tennis has a dynamic rating system as well. Once rated by the "computer" after a completed season, a player is locked in at a level rating. A player can always play up, but not down. If a player plays up and finds him/herself winning, you get bumped up. (Win too much at the higher level and the person can get his / her matches DQ'd.).

I realize cheer is different, as it is more likely in cheer for an athlete to stay a certain level for a while or even regress. But it also happens in tennis (appeals for injury, lengthy time off, etc.)

It would be awesome to see a system where in an example mentioned above, a team that as been together multiple years at say level 1 and blowing out competition, would be flagged for review.

This of course couldn't happen without historical data. It would be great if the USASF could start tracking athletes and how they compete to see how big of an issue it is.

And to the question of what the sport would look like in 10 years...I would hate to see the trend continue to the point where to be competitive at level 1, a team would really need to be level 3.

However, one thing I would like to see is more time spent in the gym working on the "little things." I know in our gym, the second an athlete gets a BWO, they start working on a BHS. I would love to see a BWO close to perfect (straight legs, pointed toes, proper hands, etc.) before working the next skill. I know the driving force in the past has been twofold, gyms wanting kids for higher level teams and parents wanting kids on higher level teams.

I guess my long winded point is that I do like the direction we are moving (perfection before progression) but doing so within the spirit of competition (i.e. no sandbagging). How to draw the line and enforce it is the big question. The mechanics of it can easily be tracked, just a matter of defining a set of rules that work for cheer.



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[cheermommaRN]

You kinda contradicted yourself in your post. You said (and we are agreeing on if the rules didn't change) that it wont be harder to win but you will need perfect everything.

In my opinion what we consider sand bagging nowadays will be considered perfection before progression in a few years. If a level 3 team in senior now went back just 5 years and competed EVERYONE would say they were sandbagging a level 4 team and it is unfair. Why? Because everyone has this level of expectation now that you do not need complete mastery of a level to move on or even to compete it.

Try a new level of thinking... what if you only put on people onto your level 3 or level 2 team who had squad perfect skills. You started the year with everything you could throw and hit and then you are just competing perfecting. Your kids could spend the entire year working on skills for a team they would move up to (so less stress) and not getting the skills to just hit the routine this year.

As for the level 1 I think our perceptions are screwed up. The first year a kid competes in a sport such as cheer doesnt mean they have to be competitive. It can be a learning year. So people will have A and B teams for level 1.

This is now. In the parent area we have talked about this at great lengths due to it being tryout season. With all star prep gyms have the ability to place kids with no experience, kids that would have been on a level 1 two years ago. More teams are starting the season with max skills. My cp was placed on a youth 1 this season, she tried out with a standing bhs, and robhs. That isn't enough for level 2 anymore, now you have to have specialty passes at tryouts to make a level. But I think this is much different than level 4 kids competing down to level 2 or 1. Her whole team is already mastered the level 1 skill set so they don't have to spend the season worried about getting skills to be competitive, they just have to work on being clean and progressing their level 2 set for next year.

 

[SarahS]

I think the best thing about this sport, and youth sports in general, is the ability to learn that you can try your hardest and still not win... and that's okay. There is value in the *doing* and the *learning* and not so much in the *winning*. So what if other teams compete down and spank you? They aren't cheating. I do not think that every team "deserves" the chance to win.

Perhaps we, as parents and coaches, need to adjust our after-loss speeches (and all-around thought patterns) away from "Yeah, I know we lost, but it's because they are sandbagging!" to "I'm so proud that you hit! Here are the suggestions that the judges made to improve our score next time..."

I get that this is a competitive sport and we all want to win, but coaches, please remember this: don't worry about "them" - you know, the gym that has a different philosophy than you. You? You do you. Do you to the best of your ability. Don't worry about the W. You do you, whether that means "pushing" or "stacking." The real win column is measured in the quality of the character of athlete you're producing. I'm a consumer of this product, and *that's* how I measure my satisfaction with it. It has nothing to do with banners on the wall.

 

[THEJOEL]

I think the best thing about this sport, and youth sports in general, is the ability to learn that you can try your hardest and still not win... and that's okay. There is value in the *doing* and the *learning* and not so much in the *winning*. So what if other teams compete down and spank you? They aren't cheating. I do not think that every team "deserves" the chance to win.

Perhaps we, as parents and coaches, need to adjust our after-loss speeches (and all-around thought patterns) away from "Yeah, I know we lost, but it's because they are sandbagging!" to "I'm so proud that you hit! Here are the suggestions that the judges made to improve our score next time..."

I get that this is a competitive sport and we all want to win, but coaches, please remember this: don't worry about "them" - you know, the gym that has a different philosophy than you. You? You do you. Do you to the best of your ability. Don't worry about the W. You do you, whether that means "pushing" or "stacking." The real win column is measured in the quality of the character of athlete you're producing. I'm a consumer of this product, and *that's* how I measure my satisfaction with it. It has nothing to do with banners on the wall.

Just letting you know that I just started a slow clap for this post.
Well said my friend...Well said.

 

[ASCheerMan]

The problem with policing sandbagging is that there's no absolute sandbagging. There is too blury of a line between sandbagging and 'being competitive.' There is no way to truly monitor it. A great way to curb it, though is to enstate stricter crossover guidelines. Everyone seems to think it would kill the sport. I know its done nothing but grown NCA Nationals.

 

[SparkleSpankies]

At the end of the day, there are always girls that like to double compete or may want to also be on a lower level team with friends, you never know... BUT when it gets to the point that out of your senior 3 50% are also on your junior or senior 4 also, then maybe you need to re-think your teams and divisions.

A friend of mines daughter is a solid level 4 but her cousin is on the level 2 and they like to be together, so she does both, it is one girl. Even 4 wouldn't really make much of a difference in my mind, especially on a large 2. I don't necessarily like crossovers at all but it seems to be a necessary evil and I hate when teams "sandbag" but there are small exceptions to crossovers that aren't terrible. Especially in a small to medium sized gym.

I personally think to avoid this each team should have a max crossover amount if you bring your entire program to competitions. Small teams max 4 large teams max 8 (or whatever). This would allow for wiggle room, injuries, those special circumstances as I stated above but still would avoid sandbagging.

And i know the fight is small gyms this small gyms that... fine but still MOST OF THE TIME sandbagging isn't a small gym issue.... or even a large gym issue, its that middle ground enrollment.

 

[XtremeWpg]

I ran into the same problem when I was figure skating.

I had to take tests and obtain a certain mark to move up a competitive level. But no one ever forced anyone to take the next test. So I could sit at Novice (2 below Olympic level) for the rest of my life and just dominate if I wanted.

So even if you get into an athlete tracking or test system, who is responsible for ensuring that people actually take the tests when ready?

 

[Valvalmom]

I did contradict myself. I suck, and blame this long day.
I think in my mind I'm thinking it won't be harder to win, because teams are already there. If you don't win now, you won't win later. If you win now, you will probably be competitive later. So yes, it will be harder to win, but I don't think winning teams will look much different than they do now.

Gymnastics is great in the sense that you need the skill to compete it... You can't have some skills and not others. In gymnastics, it makes sense that you are always competing a level down. In cheer, parents are outraged if Suzie is throwing a backhandspring when she really has a janky tuck. The team element makes it very difficult because not only are you trying to make a competitive team, but you have to fill needed spots.

I love small gyms (duh, I AM a small gym) but I am not afraid to say the following: this is going to be the demise of a small gym. If parents are at Rays and told "you compete a level down" then it's fine because it's Rays. At a small gym, it becomes "well they don't have the things my child needs to succeed." When a large gym bumps down, it's totally ok because eventually they might make the higher, stronger team next year. When this happens at a small gym, they don't stick around long enough to find out.

Added, I don't think you need to win your first year. But, from a business standpoint, I need to have teams for those kids to start somewhere and kids that cannot be competitive (not even necessarily win but at least have a shot) will not have a super fun season. Losing is not fun, and losing over and over again is miserable. Losing to teams that have level 4 kids on level 1 is difficult to explain to parents, and many of them have a bad taste in their mouth when they realize that's how cheer is. In gymnastics, you cannot go back a level just for fun and to hang out with friends, so why should you in cheer? No crossovers, ever, would be a good start to eliminating some of these problems.

Everything you said! This was exactly the point I was trying to make a few months ago about small gyms that aren't "small gym." And this year, I'm pretty sure I saw some major sandbagging on the tiny level!!!!

 

[Valvalmom]

At the end of the day, there are always girls that like to double compete or may want to also be on a lower level team with friends, you never know... BUT when it gets to the point that out of your senior 3 50% are also on your junior or senior 4 also, then maybe you need to re-think your teams and divisions.

A friend of mines daughter is a solid level 4 but her cousin is on the level 2 and they like to be together, so she does both, it is one girl. Even 4 wouldn't really make much of a difference in my mind, especially on a large 2. I don't necessarily like crossovers at all but it seems to be a necessary evil and I hate when teams "sandbag" but there are small exceptions to crossovers that aren't terrible. Especially in a small to medium sized gym.

I personally think to avoid this each team should have a max crossover amount if you bring your entire program to competitions. Small teams max 4 large teams max 8 (or whatever). This would allow for wiggle room, injuries, those special circumstances as I stated above but still would avoid sandbagging.

And i know the fight is small gyms this small gyms that... fine but still MOST OF THE TIME sandbagging isn't a small gym issue.... or even a large gym issue, its that middle ground enrollment.

At one competition this year, we saw an entire 4.2 team come off the floor and walk back to warm up for their senior 5 performance.

 

[SparkleSpankies]

At one competition this year, we saw an entire 4.2 team come off the floor and walk back to warm up for their senior 5 performance.

THAT is sandbagging.

 

[Valvalmom]

I think the best thing about this sport, and youth sports in general, is the ability to learn that you can try your hardest and still not win... and that's okay. There is value in the *doing* and the *learning* and not so much in the *winning*. So what if other teams compete down and spank you? They aren't cheating. I do not think that every team "deserves" the chance to win.

Perhaps we, as parents and coaches, need to adjust our after-loss speeches (and all-around thought patterns) away from "Yeah, I know we lost, but it's because they are sandbagging!" to "I'm so proud that you hit! Here are the suggestions that the judges made to improve our score next time..."

I get that this is a competitive sport and we all want to win, but coaches, please remember this: don't worry about "them" - you know, the gym that has a different philosophy than you. You? You do you. Do you to the best of your ability. Don't worry about the W. You do you, whether that means "pushing" or "stacking." The real win column is measured in the quality of the character of athlete you're producing. I'm a consumer of this product, and *that's* how I measure my satisfaction with it. It has nothing to do with banners on the wall.

I get what you're saying, but at the same time, I want my cp to be competitive at her level. I feel some giving up in your post. Eventually, parents aren't going to pay for their kid to hit if they still stand no chance at winning because the other teams are sandbagging.

 

[SarahS]

I get what you're saying, but at the same time, I want my cp to be competitive at her level. I feel some giving up in your post. Eventually, parents aren't going to pay for their kid to hit if they still stand no chance at winning because the other teams are sandbagging.

There's no giving up in my post. There is simply the acknowledgement that, for me, it's okay to lose.

Also? I don't agree with your last sentence, at least for me. I wouldn't pay for my kid to continuously lose because they're in the wrong division... but I would pay for them to lose if they're properly placed and they're having fun and being safe and learning about competition and how to work as a team to achieve goals and ... and... and all of the things you can learn from youth sports.

As hard as it is to believe, I don't care if my kids win. I don't. I want them to be and to do and to try and *so what* if they lose. They're going to try their hardest at other things in their lives and they're not going to win all the time there, either. Sometimes people will be bigger or faster or smarter. It's okay to lose - not to give up trying, of course, but if you try your hardest and still fail, it's okay. To me, teaching kids that winning is the best thing, so much so that you'd quit if you never win, deprives them of so many opportunities to see that life can be rich, even looking at the world from the second or third place podium.

 

[SparkleSpankies]

At one competition this year, we saw an entire 4.2 team come off the floor and walk back to warm up for their senior 5 performance.

One more for this, last year a local team in my area had a senior 4 and a 4.2 and at said national competition, pretty much the entire team went to the 4.2 if you look at the pics, when stunting, you are not sure which team you are looking at.. there were like 5 girls i know of different and they did the same with the youth and junior 3 and some of the senior 3.. like really.. so annoying.. just cause you have 65 athletes and they can cross over same level 3 times doesn't make you a better program..... OK Done now