All-Star Crossovers And Sandbagging

[nicolee]

This is probably not a popular opinion, but I don't mind the crossovers, even to lower-level teams. In certain situations it can do good things for an athlete: helping them learn a different position, giving them experience with a different team (eg. learning to coed stunt if an athlete has mostly competed all-girl).

A family friend of mine is 10 and recently moved up to level 5. She was devastated at having to leave a lot of her friends, most of whom are level 4. So she crosses over to that team despite having all level 5 skills, and despite being a level 5 flyer, is learning to base on the level 4 team.

Ultimately, if a gym wants to cross kids over then that's their prerogative. Until it's illegal then they have the right to do so.

 

[DropAndRun]

Ok so.. My daughter competes in the same division as CEAs Y3.. Yes there are lots of crossovers and yes they won UCA but they have not been unbeatable this season. I said at the beginning of the season and I will repeat it now.. If glitter penguins want to win they better bring more than a tag that says I cross to Y5/J5 because the other large y3 teams in this country do not play. Has anyone seen Gymtyme Glitter?

And I fully, completely, and wholeheartedly disagree that a lifetime flyer can necessarily learn to base on a top team in a summer. Ask my stunt nugget!

 

[Cheer Dad]

Very well stated. I don't think anyone takes issue with a crossover when they are crossing over to a higher level team as in your case. Crossovers are primarily viewed in a negative light when they are used (or overused) on a team in order to create an unfair advantage over an opponent. It could be an unfair advantage due to the number of crossovers utilized, or the skill level of the crossover(s), or both. Nonetheless, you're in good shape.....no hate here.

How do you differentiate between crossing up or down?


**Show of hands, who thinks their vague booking about changing gyms is so clever we don't understand it?**

 

[FamousMatty]

How do you differentiate between crossing up or down?


**Show of hands, who thinks their vague booking about changing gyms is so clever we don't understand it?**

I think by up she means not necessarily having the skills for level 2 but you cross up from level 1 to 2. Where as down is normally seen as having the skills for a level and competing lower.

 

[Pebbles49]

This is an hypothetical question, so don't accuse me of trying to start an East Coast- West Coast brawl... But I was just wondering, if an athlete reaches that lvl 5 status/team should crossing over to any team/level below R5 be considered sandbagging?

PS: I think if cheerleading can define what its limits for their athletes, maybe these discussions on stacking and sandbagging will be insignificant...

 

[luv2cheer92]

I think by up she means not necessarily having the skills for level 2 but you cross up from level 1 to 2. Where as down is normally seen as having the skills for a level and competing lower.

Idk I can see the other side of it but I feel like if you are on a level 2 team you are a level 2 athlete. Even if you don't have every single level 2 skill, something about you made the coaches decide to put you on that team. I'm probably in the minority on that though.

 

[Cheer Dad]

I think by up she means not necessarily having the skills for level 2 but you cross up from level 1 to 2. Where as down is normally seen as having the skills for a level and competing lower.

Idk I can see the other side of it but I feel like if you are on a level 2 team you are a level 2 athlete. Even if you don't have every single level 2 skill, something about you made the coaches decide to put you on that team. I'm probably in the minority on that though.

Luv2cheer92 made my point. Once you compete 'up' a level aren't you considered that level? Crossing over is crossing over. If crossing up was acceptable while crossing down was not I could see gyms placing kids and lower levels and then asking them to cross up to a different team which may be the team they belong on to start with. does that make it any better?


**Show of hands, who thinks their vague booking about changing gyms is so clever we don't understand it?**

 

[CheerBank]

This is an hypothetical question, so don't accuse me of trying to start an East Coast- West Coast brawl... But I was just wondering, if an athlete reaches that lvl 5 status/team should crossing over to any team/level below R5 be considered sandbagging?

PS: I think if cheerleading can define what its limits for their athletes, maybe these discussions on stacking and sandbagging will be insignificant...

Why even allow R5? If your gym has a level 5 and an R5, and the athlete made the level 5 because of their skills, how is dropping down to R5 still acceptable to you?

Our gym has a policy that your primary team is your age appropriate one regardless of the level of that team. If you choose to only do one team - which is perfectly acceptable and we have many kids who do that - then you are on your age appropriate team regardless of your skills. We are a small gym and it has kept the younger teams strong while keeping similarly aged athletes together longer than if they just moved them up as soon as they gained new skills.

 

[klynn64]

How do you differentiate between crossing up or down?


**Show of hands, who thinks their vague booking about changing gyms is so clever we don't understand it?**

In this case she said that she was a Level 1 athlete (which by her description of skills seems accurate) with no Level 2 skills. Her placement was on a Level 1 team (her primary team) and she crossed over up to the Level 2 team. Had she possessed a good deal of, or all of her Level 2 skills or her primary team was a Level 2, but she crossed over to a Level 1 team she would be crossing down to a Level 1 team.

 

[klynn64]

Idk I can see the other side of it but I feel like if you are on a level 2 team you are a level 2 athlete. Even if you don't have every single level 2 skill, something about you made the coaches decide to put you on that team. I'm probably in the minority on that though.

I agree that it should be assumed that an athlete performs at the same level as the team in which they are assigned. But, due to sandbagging that assumption would not be accurate in all circumstances. You said "something about you made the coaches decide to put you on that team". Yeah, winning. That's why a coach would have Level 5 athletes on a Level 3 team, unfortunately.

 

[klynn64]

Luv2cheer92 made my point. Once you compete 'up' a level aren't you considered that level? Crossing over is crossing over. If crossing up was acceptable while crossing down was not I could see gyms placing kids and lower levels and then asking them to cross up to a different team which may be the team they belong on to start with. does that make it any better?


**Show of hands, who thinks their vague booking about changing gyms is so clever we don't understand it?**

I would much rather be competing against a Level 3 team that had athletes on the team that crossed up rather than crossed down. Yes, they are both crossing over. But there's no risk of sandbagging when athletes are crossing up (assuming the athletes are on level appropriate teams to start with).

 

[luv2cheer92]

I agree that it should be assumed that an athlete performs at the same level as the team in which they are assigned. But, due to sandbagging that assumption would not be accurate in all circumstances. You said "something about you made the coaches decide to put you on that team". Yeah, winning. That's why a coach would have Level 5 athletes on a Level 3 team, unfortunately.

I was talking more about athletes with lesser skills competing on higher level teams not the other way around. Unfortunately there's no way for someone outside a gym to know that an athlete is "competing up" opposed to "competing down" and they're just going to see that someone on a level 5 team is also on a level 3 team even if they don't have many level 5 skills. That's why I'm saying there really is no distinction between the two terms (competing up vs down) and people are more likely to look at it negatively instead of that the athlete/coach/whoever is wanting to be on that higher level team to improve their skills.

 

[CEA_ATC]

I was talking more about athletes with lesser skills competing on higher level teams not the other way around. Unfortunately there's no way for someone outside a gym to know that an athlete is "competing up" opposed to "competing down" and they're just going to see that someone on a level 5 team is also on a level 3 team even if they don't have many level 5 skills. That's why I'm saying there really is no distinction between the two terms (competing up vs down) and people are more likely to look at it negatively instead of that the athlete/coach/whoever is wanting to be on that higher level team to improve their skills.

Thank you for this. My CP happens to be on the two most notorious Youth teams in the business, it seems. She does NOT have level 5 tumbling skills, not even close, but is in her second year on Youth Elite. She is there because she is aBEAST base and a great dancer. To be honest, at the moment, she isn't even a level three tumbler (d@mn tumble block)... But on Fierceboard, my kid is "sandbagging". I'm like: "What the what?". The comment someone made earlier about "when they cross up to level 5, that is what they are" is simply ludicrous.

I have discussed at length in here about the way CSP does things, and this GP/YE thing is more of the same for most of the crossovers: you get placed on one "appropriate" team for your skills and one "stretch" team that may be a bit out of your range, but will push you. That is how my child is on YE and GP. Glitter Penguins are appropriate for her, and Youth Elite is a stretch... But it makes her better.

 

[nicolee]

I would much rather be competing against a Level 3 team that had athletes on the team that crossed up rather than crossed down. Yes, they are both crossing over. But there's no risk of sandbagging when athletes are crossing up (assuming the athletes are on level appropriate teams to start with).

The problem with this is that you have no way of knowing whether they're 'true' level 5 kids crossing down to level 3, or 'true' level 3 kids crossing up. A child might have a double but have level 3 basing skills. Or, like an athlete on a well-known Worlds team this year, she might be a beautiful level 5 flyer but not have jumps to tuck.
If these kids were crossing over, which team would be their 'true' level?

My point is that it's extremely difficult to work out whether a kid is crossing up or down. It's also near-impossible to prove why a kid is crossing over. You may think that a big, bad mega-gym is sandbagging, but they might also be crossing kids over so they can have experience on different teams, train with friends from a different level, or stretch themselves in a certain skill.

 

[luv2cheer92]

Thank you for this. My CP happens to be on the two most notorious Youth teams in the business, it seems. She does NOT have level 5 tumbling skills, not even close, but is in her second year on Youth Elite. She is there because she is aBEAST base and a great dancer. To be honest, at the moment, she isn't even a level three tumbler (d@mn tumble block)... But on Fierceboard, my kid is "sandbagging". I'm like: "What the what?". The comment someone made earlier about "when they cross up to level 5, that is what they are" is simply ludicrous.

I have discussed at length in here about the way CSP does things, and this GP/YE thing is more of the same for most of the crossovers: you get placed on one "appropriate" team for your skills and one "stretch" team that may be a bit out of your range, but will push you. That is how my child is on YE and GP. Glitter Penguins are appropriate for her, and Youth Elite is a stretch... But it makes her better.

I think you may have misunderstood my comment because that's pretty close to the opposite of how I was thinking. Everyone has different opinions on sandbagging and what classifies it and that's fine.
I don't think my opinion of how CEA is run is any secret on here, but just because it's not my cup of tea doesn't mean it doesn't work for others, which is great!