All-Star Crossovers And Sandbagging

[MzLyn23]

I think "NO" was accidentally missing from her response. There is NO safety deduction for removing a shoe from the performing surface. You may be deducted if an athlete begins the routine without shoes or intentionally takes shoes off of his or her feet in the middle of the routine, as full soled shoes are required per the general safety rules (gen rule 6 if anyone cares lol) but removing a shoe from the mat is actually smarter and safer than trying to perform on top of it, so therefore is not illegal.

that's what the girl did... purposely took her shoe off and through it to the front.... its just frustrating because as a coach I have seen deductions for picking up a bow or fallen shoe to move from the middle of the mat.... This girl (and I have the video to prove it) purposely took her shoe off and flung it to the front (it literally landed in front of the coaches on the mat).....

 

[amy1k]

that's what the girl did... purposely took her shoe off and through it to the front.... its just frustrating because as a coach I have seen deductions for picking up a bow or fallen shoe to move from the middle of the mat.... This girl (and I have the video to prove it) purposely took her shoe off and flung it to the front (it literally landed in front of the coaches on the mat).....

Bizarre.

 

[quitthedrama]

that's what the girl did... purposely took her shoe off and through it to the front.... its just frustrating because as a coach I have seen deductions for picking up a bow or fallen shoe to move from the middle of the mat.... This girl (and I have the video to prove it) purposely took her shoe off and flung it to the front (it literally landed in front of the coaches on the mat).....

I'd love to see a video, because I highly doubt this girl "purposely" took her shoe off just for fun. My guess is either the lace came untied or someone stepped on the back of her shoe and it was halfway off and the girl took her shoe off because it was safer and easier to perform than having a shoe half on - which has happened to my CP on more than occasion.

 

[retiredl5cheer]

that's what the girl did... purposely took her shoe off and through it to the front.... its just frustrating because as a coach I have seen deductions for picking up a bow or fallen shoe to move from the middle of the mat.... This girl (and I have the video to prove it) purposely took her shoe off and flung it to the front (it literally landed in front of the coaches on the mat).....

I highly doubt that a kid feels more comfortable performing with one shoe off and one shoe on (diddle diddle dumpling). Most likely she knew it was going to fly off for one reason or another and reacted quickly. There was a WCSS flyer that competed the entire routine without shoes because someone stepped on the back of both of them within a few seconds of the start of the routine. It was obviously going to be easier for her to take them off than to try to put them back on in the middle of a jam-packed routine.

 

[klynn64]

Let's assume she did remove her shoe for some reason (latent bunion pain or something) and tossed it towards her coaches. Does that make a difference when it comes to the rule regarding safety deductions ? Or, does it come down to the subjectivity of the judges ?

I've seen teams receive deductions for bows coming off before and for having a hair band on your wrist. Is a shoe so different ? I've seen plenty of shoes come off during team's performances but I've never heard whether it resulted in a deduction. Except for CP when it flew off a couple times when on a Youth and Junior team. A deduction was never received them. One time an athletes shoe flew off during her tumbling pass but it never touched the mat. Instead it flew way up into the spectators. Is that viewed any differently than if it lands on the mat ?

I only ask because I was told by a judge and a coach that what makes the difference whether or not it's a deduction is whether the item was stepped on or otherwise interfered with the execution of the routine. They said a shoe can lay there on the mat the whole routine but it cannot be touched by any of the athletes.

 

[retiredl5cheer]

Let's assume she did remove her shoe for some reason (latent bunion pain or something) and tossed it towards her coaches. Does that make a difference when it comes to the rule regarding safety deductions ? Or, does it come down to the subjectivity of the judges ?

I've seen teams receive deductions for bows coming off before and for having a hair band on your wrist. Is a shoe so different ? I've seen plenty of shoes come off during team's performances but I've never heard whether it resulted in a deduction. Except for CP when it flew off a couple times when on a Youth and Junior team. A deduction was never received them. One time an athletes shoe flew off during her tumbling pass but it never touched the mat. Instead it flew way up into the spectators. Is that viewed any differently than if it lands on the mat ?

I only ask because I was told by a judge and a coach that what makes the difference whether or not it's a deduction is whether the item was stepped on or otherwise interfered with the execution of the routine. They said a shoe can lay there on the mat the whole routine but it cannot be touched by any of the athletes.

It might be up to the discretion of the EP. More often than not, you won't get hit with a deduction for something like that.

ETA: A hairband on the wrist is considered jewelry, which is why that's a deduction.

 

[cheermomforever]

Let's assume she did remove her shoe for some reason (latent bunion pain or something) and tossed it towards her coaches. Does that make a difference when it comes to the rule regarding safety deductions ? Or, does it come down to the subjectivity of the judges ?

I've seen teams receive deductions for bows coming off before and for having a hair band on your wrist. Is a shoe so different ? I've seen plenty of shoes come off during team's performances but I've never heard whether it resulted in a deduction. Except for CP when it flew off a couple times when on a Youth and Junior team. A deduction was never received them. One time an athletes shoe flew off during her tumbling pass but it never touched the mat. Instead it flew way up into the spectators. Is that viewed any differently than if it lands on the mat ?

I only ask because I was told by a judge and a coach that what makes the difference whether or not it's a deduction is whether the item was stepped on or otherwise interfered with the execution of the routine. They said a shoe can lay there on the mat the whole routine but it cannot be touched by any of the athletes.

I think at Worlds recently when a flyer lost a shoe, every time she stunted a safety deduction was added.

 

[cheer25mom]

I think at Worlds recently when a flyer lost a shoe, every time she stunted a safety deduction was added.

See, I thought this is what was supposed to happen. Our gym is very careful about shoes being tied tight and using something to keep the laces in if needed because we have been hit with those deductions in the past. Bows too. I was under the impression that if anything hit the mat and anyone touched it after it was a deduction, and that stunting without a shoe was a safety deduction too. I just assumed the rule had changed when they weren't being deducted this season.

 

[quitthedrama]

I think at Worlds recently when a flyer lost a shoe, every time she stunted a safety deduction was added.

I could be wrong but I thought that shoe deduction was a rumor and it didn't actually happen (I assume you are referring to WCSS)

 

[cheermomforever]

I could be wrong but I thought that shoe deduction was a rumor and it didn't actually happen (I assume you are referring to WCSS)

That's why I said "I think?"

 

[MzLyn23]

Regardless of shoe or not or any other reason.... something has got to give.... Something has to change.... I always refer back to my little league example... Teams have gotten trophies and medals taken away when it was proven that an over age athlete played on a younger team... it should be the same with cheer... Levels are the key point... Its not fair to have level 5 or level 5R athletes on a level 1 or 2 team.... Those level 5/5r athletes which I witnessed myself are throwing full and double full passes with other combinations as well as executing stunt difficulty which makes their level 2 stunting pretty much just doing basics.... if you can stunt one legged in full extensions and do other tricks at a level 5 difficulty then doing level 2/1 and even level 3 is like a walk in the park for you... that athlete is not a TRUE level 1 or 2 athlete.... Its not fair.... Its done too often at competitions were apparently EP's overlook this or just turn a blind eye.... How do we show our children/athletes good sportsmanship when they witness the sandbagging themselves and then its bragged about on social media... that stings and its stings bad....

 

[klynn64]

I think at Worlds recently when a flyer lost a shoe, every time she stunted a safety deduction was added.

That seems harsh when they deliberately overlook significant rule violations in other areas.

 

[klynn64]

Regardless of shoe or not or any other reason.... something has got to give.... Something has to change.... I always refer back to my little league example... Teams have gotten trophies and medals taken away when it was proven that an over age athlete played on a younger team... it should be the same with cheer... Levels are the key point... Its not fair to have level 5 or level 5R athletes on a level 1 or 2 team.... Those level 5/5r athletes which I witnessed myself are throwing full and double full passes with other combinations as well as executing stunt difficulty which makes their level 2 stunting pretty much just doing basics.... if you can stunt one legged in full extensions and do other tricks at a level 5 difficulty then doing level 2/1 and even level 3 is like a walk in the park for you... that athlete is not a TRUE level 1 or 2 athlete.... Its not fair.... Its done too often at competitions were apparently EP's overlook this or just turn a blind eye.... How do we show our children/athletes good sportsmanship when they witness the sandbagging themselves and then its bragged about on social media... that stings and its stings bad....

I couldn't agree more. I feel sooooo strongly that this issue needs addressed NOW by the powers that be (whoever that may be). I've spent countless hours looking for a way that we can exact change in this area. I'm stumped and hate feeling powerless but I don't know what it is that we can do to address the problem.

The stacked team walks away with the win and leaves a wake of devastation for the honest team. Do we really want our kids to get the message that cheaters prosper. And that you don't have to work hard to achieve your goals, you just become dishonest. After all look at what cheating gets you.

The EP's know what goes on and they know what they can do to safeguard against it. So, why don't they implement the necessary changes? I don't have the answer to that. The only thing I can figure, is that economically it's in their best interest to leave it the way it is currently. If they make changes that prevent sandbagging maybe they will lose some teams. If the don't change things maybe they'll lose some teams. So, they must figure they have more to lose by making things honest than they will lose leaving things the way they are. I feel like with the EP"s it's all about the $$. For them it's not about the reputation of cheer, or the increasing prevelance of unscrupulous behavior. Teaching valuable life lessons to athletes is not their problem. Or so it would seem. But, I think that kind of thinking is short sighted and in time they will come to see the error of their ways. But the damage will be done.

WE MUST QUIT REWARDING BAD BEHAVIOR. Until then nothing will change. Realistically speaking, why should it?

For the sake of discussion I've spoken in generalities. I recognize how unfair it is to imply all EP's view things the same. I know they don't. Just like all coaches are not unscrupulous. As a matter of fact cheer is filled with intelligent, generous, kind, talented individuals. For the most part. And then there's those other few. Let's find a way to prevent the few from infecting the sport and changing it into something we no longer love. Cheer needs to be credible. An individualsshould be proud to be associated with cheer

 

[Labegg]

So I am reading on another thread about a CP crossing/competing on two teams at Summit (I think it was a R5 to 4 ) and it made me think...here we are blaming EPs for allowing and gyms for using crossovers and sandbagging but we as parents can solve this problem, just don't let your CP do it...period. Choose a level and stick to it, Fine, cross from a jr to sr age team if you think you have to be on 2 teams, but stay in the same level. It is that simple. Change starts at home...

 

[CharlotteASMom]

So I am reading on another thread about a CP crossing/competing on two teams at Summit (I think it was a R5 to 4 ) and it made me think...here we are blaming EPs for allowing and gyms for using crossovers and sandbagging but we as parents can solve this problem, just don't let your CP do it...period. Choose a level and stick to it, Fine, cross from a jr to sr age team if you think you have to be on 2 teams, but stay in the same level. It is that simple. Change starts at home...

AMEN! Parents assume they have no power but in reality they have the most power of all. The ability to say "No". However I feel that many parents really have no issue with this as long as it results in a win. They make every excuse in the book to justify it or blame the EP, gym, industry, etc. but in reality they have all the control but choose not to use it.