All-Star Tcu Not Allowed To Perform Baskets At Nca Nationals

[Rusty]

So for all the people who don't care if cheerleading is called a sport, if we are not a sport (and therefor bring nothing to the table outside of spirit leading) what is the point of colleges continuing to put the insurance risk out there if there is no benefit from it?

Another sign college cheer dies slowly.

Is it dying a slow death, … or mutating back to the original necessary activities for leading a crowd in the primary activity for which the activity derived its name, … CheerLEADING?

I’m just saying …

I agree, somewhat, with SharkDad. But I'm not into this STUNT or NCATA thing. I think some type of college cheer governing body needs to exsist to do a few things, but when it comes down to it, college cheerleading is not allstars. College cheer does not exsist to compete. That is something most college squads decide on their own and fund themselves. Now maybe cheerleaders should take a stand and not cheer on the college level until something changes, I don't see much happening. All my years working in cheerleading and the thing I see least often are injuries due to baskets. Maybe thats me being paranoid and overly cautious but still...

I think a governing body would be great but who would listen to it? Most college cheer squads are simply support groups that do not bring in money to the athletic department so whats the point for them to fund one?

Cheerleading on the college level is a performance activity more than it is a sport simply because most colleges spend the majority of their time on the sidelines. Do I want that to change? Yes. Do I want it to change into something similar or the same as STUNT or NCATA - HECK NO!

Disclaimer: I want college cheerleading to survive and thrive, but I think it needs to be a good mix of sideline cheer and competition. College is not allstars.

According to the QU T9 (Quinnipiac University Title XI) trial in July 2010, per Judge Stephan Underhill the difference in activity & Sport requires more structure, as with other NCAA & T9 sports, however he did NOT say that Cheer participants are not athletes! Necessary requirements for the Sport of Cheer;
NGB (National Governing Board)
Rules, … not AACCA Guidelines
Competition Season, also defines off-season activities
NCAA Rules for participation; grade point averages, full time students, access to Medical Staff, academic advisors, …
Looks simple on paper, but delivery is a different question as both A&T and Stunt have discovered. For a successful NGB all of the athletes covered must be accountable on the same basis as other NCAA athletes, which includes recruiting, selection, school visits, scholarship opportunities, etc. The most important aspect of this project is acceptance by the NCAA as an Emerging Sport!
As you say, many current Cheerleaders only compete one time per year, or maybe two if you include Summer Training clinics and the Nationals. When you review any Sport recognized by the NCAA not one single National level competition and Title is determined by one or two games as representing a full season. Apparently VB (Varsity Brands) has been asleep at the wheel in developing any attractive competitive format for Collegiate Cheer since they began Nationals in 1983. Time to fish or cut bait!

 

[Rusty]

one word :BOGUS:

Which part is bogus? Are you referring to UCA/NCA Collegiate Cheer Competition as a bogus title?

 

[Rusty]

Is cheerleading dangerous? I think we all know the answer to that. I mean could you fall off a pyramid and get paralyzed, of course. But could you be tackled in a football play and land wrong and be paralyzed, I'm sure its possible. The fact that cheerleaders get treated any different then any other sport in college is horrible. You chose to compete at the highest level in football, and because there is a cheer team and the coach obviously chooses to compete at the highest level you need to take the risks that are associated.

I agree with @SharkDad and that there needs to be some sort of governing body. That way when cheerleaders are put in these situations there is someone to represent them and right the wrong that is being made.
No one would ever tell a football team they can play at the highest level but they can't do certain plays or tackles because they are more dangerous than others, and if that was the case a stop would be put to it very fast.

Keep in mind the difference between "Assumption of Risk" and "Negligence." One means you will accept the risk associated with physical activity, the other deals with an incompetent Coach allowing activity which allows inexperienced athletes to participate in activities which have dire results. Sometimes the line between “genius” and simply “crazy” is very fine, other times it simply requires a "Prudent Man" to determine the difference and prevent life altering results!

"Football is dangerous, but we choose to participate in football." Um....what? What does that even mean, dude?

FB has rules & regulations requiring all athletes & Coaches to adhere to or else they are removed from the ability to play or Coach, are you familiar with the FB Death Penalty? Check it out, ... then spend some time attempting to discover any Cheer Coach who has been reprimanded or fired as a result of any action on the part of AACCA, good luck!

 

[SharkDad]

Unfortunately, Sharkdad, I have already obtained intelligence on cheer safety from personal experience. So, that is not why I am asking. I am interested in knowing about the "governing" and "certification" organization reporting on injuries versus their own comparisons. I also have the stats compiled above. I was simply curious to know if AACCA put out an injury report, which it appears that they don't unless someone can show me otherwise.

You are correct from what I can see. I have never seen them have a format for collecting data or put out a report.

 

[Rusty]

But since they are so respected by the entire University as well as the fans do you really think the school would allow the AD to do that? Just knowing how the University feels about their cheerleaders I would not be surprised if the President of the University in some way put a stop to something like that happening. Who knows though.

I'm not sure how the cheerleaders at Alabama were looked at by the entire University but it is possible that their situation is completely different then say it is as UK.

Agree with Kingston, an AD is the head of the Athletic Department and they control the safety of the athletes on and off the field, ... this may sound monotonous "Ground Bound!"

I agree. I have been against the STUNT and NCATA thing from the beginning because I don't feel it was necessary to change things to the format that they made. Of course they will argue that it was a must, but I beg to differ. I feel that if the major players of college cheer, NCA and UCA, came together they could put together a format that is still showing off the athletic ability while still giving them the traditional look that college cheer has always been. Look at Team USA in 2009. They had James Speed and Jomo Thompson has their coed coaches and together they took a NCA and UCA routine and combined it into one that showcased great skill. I like what someone posted in the NCATA Championship thread in the college section, they said that what NCATA has done is not take a step in getting college cheerleading recognized as a sport, they have instead created a new sport to become recognized.

I just don't see teams like Kentucky who are a major part of the basketball and football games up and leaving their tradition because of a governing body that wants them to give that up. If that is what it takes to make college cheer an NCAA sport then so be it but I see a lot of teams skipping it and keeping what they already have.

How many National Champion Titles are available through to Collegiate Division 1 Basketball athletes? The answer is two, the NCAA & the NIT.

How many Cheer Divisions offer National Championship Titles between NCA and UCA? UCA offers 12, and NCA offers 18 titles for 30 National Titles in 2010! Now … add in the Dance National Divisional Titles with UCA offering 5 Divisions and NCA adding another 9 for a total number of 14 Dance Divisional National Titles. Combined UCA & NCA offer 44 National Collegiate Championship titles!

Before I illustrate more on this topic, please understand … when I watch these competitions on TV, those are impressive routines with athletes & Coaches pushing human physical limits within the rules of the competitions, they are very impressive athletes! The following issues relate to FORMATS of various competitions and the rules, not the athletes capabilities! Top Coaches represented by Jomo Thompson of UK and James Speed of UofL train their athletes for the competition format to achieve recognition, each has achieved their goals many times, Coaches are not the issue which follows.

Many questions surface as you make these comparisons with the additional perspective of Collegiate Cheer Competition history;

How many titles is the right number, to maintain quality and public respect not just Cheer Nation recognition?
Who should be the NGB for these competitions?
How will the NGB maintain Safety for the athletes?
What would a season of competitions look like?
Scoring system?

So many questions …. So little patience.

When you compare Collegiate Basketball National titles (2) to Collegiate Cheer National titles (44) you quickly see Cheer offers significantly more opportunities for athletes to go home with a title, but winning a title that is not recognized by any of the Collegiate athletic oversight committees would cause anyone to question the validity of the title earned. If this is simply another outgrowth for Cheer participation then maybe these athletes need to be included in USASF/IASF not based upon a University except at club level, which would require participation in more than one or two events to win recognition as National Champions. These events started in 1977 with ICF (International Cheer Foundation) offering only ONE Title each year, the only significant alteration to the competition format is reduction in the time allowed for routines and development of extra Divisions. Since the beginning of these events they should continue mutating, challenging each athletes physical and mental capabilities, with Safety being a primary consideration. UCA/NCA are relatively Safe, however even their formats could be safer. How many titles is realistic to capture our Nations attention, not just the respect of the Cheer Nation? Only a real non-profit NGB recognized by the NCAA will be able to answer the question for collegiate student athletes.

“SHOW ME THE MONEY!” Who profits ($) from offering so many Divisions and National Championship titles? VARSITY Brands (VB) by selling each school uniforms, training the members at Summer Camps, travel fees, individual recognition rings, etc. is “laughing all the way to the bank!” For VB the greater number of Divisions leads to more competitors and therefore higher profits, so “well done” for VB taking full advantage of a growth industry. Once again, I will ask, “Is the number of 44 versus 2 a reasonable number, or does this confuse and reduce the recognition for title winners?”
When the collegiate basketball teams win everyone is correct in assuming the University purchases the rings, but once again, BB is a recognized SPORT by the NCAA, … Cheer is NOT! Sorry UA as 2011 UCA Division IA Cheer winners you deserve your rings however, you must buy your own, or transfer to UK or UofL and be one of their consistent winning squads in the future.
Nobody said Cheerleaders are NOT Athletes, all you have heard over & over is the current format of Collegiate Cheer is not an NCAA recognized Sport. VB has restricted method of profiting from an NCAA recognized Sport and they would lose the “control factor” and serious profit when, and if all of Collegiate Cheer ever achieves recognition through the NCAA! Congratulations to the wealthy VB shareholders who have profited from creating a unique part of Americana into a “cash cow” currently with the belief of, “wherever the Collegiate Squads go for training and competition the younger age participants will follow.” So ask this question, “What would motivate VB to support moving Cheer into recognition as a Sport? In one word, nothing!
Again, “So many questions, … so little patience ….”

How many National Champion Titles are available through to Collegiate Division 1 Basketball athletes? The answer is two, the NCAA & the NIT.

How many Cheer Divisions offer National Championship Titles between NCA and UCA? UCA offers 12, and NCA offers 18 titles for 30 National Titles in 2010! Now … add in the Dance National Divisional Titles with UCA offering 5 Divisions and NCA adding another 9 for a total number of 14 Dance Divisional National Titles. Combined UCA & NCA offer 44 National Collegiate Championship titles!

Before I illustrate more on this topic, please understand … when I watch these competitions on TV, those are impressive routines with athletes & Coaches pushing human physical limits within the rules of the competitions, they are very impressive athletes! The following issues relate to FORMATS of various competitions and the rules, not the athletes capabilities! Top Coaches represented by Jomo Thompson of UK and James Speed of UofL train their athletes for the competition format to achieve recognition, each has achieved their goals many times, Coaches are not the issue which follows.

Many questions surface as you make these comparisons with the additional perspective of Collegiate Cheer Competition history;

How many titles is the right number, to maintain quality and public respect not just Cheer Nation recognition?
Who should be the NGB for these competitions?
How will the NGB maintain Safety for the athletes?
What would a season of competitions look like?
Scoring system?

So many questions …. So little patience.

When you compare Collegiate Basketball National titles (2) to Collegiate Cheer National titles (44) you quickly see Cheer offers significantly more opportunities for athletes to go home with a title, but winning a title that is not recognized by any of the Collegiate athletic oversight committees would cause anyone to question the validity of the title earned. If this is simply another outgrowth for Cheer participation then maybe these athletes need to be included in USASF/IASF not based upon a University except at club level, which would require participation in more than one or two events to win recognition as National Champions. These events started in 1977 with ICF (International Cheer Foundation) offering only ONE Title each year, the only significant alteration to the competition format is reduction in the time allowed for routines and development of extra Divisions. Since the beginning of these events they should continue mutating, challenging each athletes physical and mental capabilities, with Safety being a primary consideration. UCA/NCA are relatively Safe, however even their formats could be safer. How many titles is realistic to capture our Nations attention, not just the respect of the Cheer Nation? Only a real non-profit NGB recognized by the NCAA will be able to answer the question for collegiate student athletes.

“SHOW ME THE MONEY!” Who profits ($) from offering so many Divisions and National Championship titles? VARSITY Brands (VB) by selling each school uniforms, training the members at Summer Camps, travel fees, individual recognition rings, etc. is “laughing all the way to the bank!” For VB the greater number of Divisions leads to more competitors and therefore higher profits, so “well done” for VB taking full advantage of a growth industry. Once again, I will ask, “Is the number of 44 versus 2 a reasonable number, or does this confuse and reduce the recognition for title winners?”
When the collegiate basketball teams win everyone is correct in assuming the University purchases the rings, but once again, BB is a recognized SPORT by the NCAA, … Cheer is NOT! Sorry UA as 2011 UCA Division IA Cheer winners you deserve your rings however, you must buy your own, or transfer to UK or UofL and be one of their consistent winning squads in the future.
Nobody said Cheerleaders are NOT Athletes, all you have heard over & over is the current format of Collegiate Cheer is not an NCAA recognized Sport. VB has restricted method of profiting from an NCAA recognized Sport and they would lose the “control factor” and serious profit when, and if all of Collegiate Cheer ever achieves recognition through the NCAA! Congratulations to the wealthy VB shareholders who have profited from creating a unique part of Americana into a “cash cow” currently with the belief of, “wherever the Collegiate Squads go for training and competition the younger age participants will follow.” So ask this question, “What would motivate VB to support moving Cheer into recognition as a Sport? In one word, … NOTHING!
Again, “So many questions, … so little patience ….”

 

[mia4life06]

i was thinking the exact same thing!

lol. . . what this means is that the AD doesn't see why they are even competing for most college they are taking away teams such as cheer competing because they see it as not a sport and don't see the point of it . . . the AD of this college see them so just be spirit leader without competing. . . . I have seen this at many college school and university its all love Nebraska as state before. . . Kansas high school. .. colleges like Barton Community College, Hutchinson Community College, I even would say Illinois college

 

[Rusty]

The National Cheer Safety Foundation (NCSF) at: http://nationalcheersafetyfoundation.com has had an injury collection database they have been compiling for years and they are linked with the reporting that occurs in the NCCSIR study.

The NCSF also has created an in-depth safety certification course that can be used as contining education credit in many areas. Most of what I have seen them do is NATA, medically, and research based.

I have seen AACCA step up their safety efforts in recent years, but not to the same level as the NCSF. As a parent, I hope they can cooperate better in the future.

It is my hope that Kimberly Archie, Krista Robinson & NCSF remain distinctly separate from VB for one primary reason, every business which aligns with VB eventually sings the same tune, NCSF needs to continue to stand up for the Safety of the participants not the profit of VB where Safety is addressed only when it can negatively impact profits. Those are two very different concepts and thought processes.

VB, UCA/NCA and all the other sub-divisions of VB, focus on profit and only begin creating change when current or future profits are threatened. AACCA, a sub-division of VB, may offer more courses, in fact they could offer them all free but nothing will change until a real NGB has the authority to penalize programs not compliant with the rules & regulations. In case you are unfamiliar with the VB Coach Certification, it is nothing more than an open book test. Now I agree that knowledge is valuable but unfortunately an open book test & the VB or AACCA Manual will not provide Safety due to the complexity of Cheer activity (including Stunts, Pyramids, Basket Tosses & Tumbling) creating very high potential for life altering (read; CRIPPLING) injuries. No “Prudent Parent” would hand their child they love keys to a fast car when they turn 16 years old and say go have fun without hours of classroom instruction and on the road behind the wheel experience! Every year many New Coaches are “CERTIFIED” by VB/AACCA upon passing their written test which follows a few hours in the classroom reviewing all the answers to the test, these very same Coaches place student athletes at risk every time they practice or perform. These New Coaches, or anyone not focused upon Safety of their athletes, place individuals “at risk” similar to the 16 year old without Driver’s Education experience taking the keys and the car for a trip across a very complex city road system with a fast car!

Kimberly should keep swinging her sling full of pebbles at the giant (VB) in this struggle to raise the public’s awareness to the real threat which causes injuries in Cheer every day, the lack of enforceable safety focused rules and regulations. Accident numbers reported by NCCSIR only capture volunteer reports to NCSF and ER reports, which doesn’t come close to the real total numbers of injuries. Until we accept the problems of injury and injury management consistently, nothing will change drastically & we will continue to see headlines in the news of significant Cheer injuries!

When and if an NGB can be established, which is only necessary if Cheer is created as a sport (ie., A&T or Stunt) then it will have the ability to create rules & regulations based upon research into the causes of injury and review methods for either reducing the severity of injuries or the frequency or in the absolute best case scenario both.

By the way, the offering of the NCSF and US Sports Academy is not ready for prime time consumption yet, however some of the fundamental educational portions of the Cheer training program are complete. Just not the whole certification, yet.

 

[Deleted member 8658]

Which part is bogus? Are you referring to UCA/NCA Collegiate Cheer Competition as a bogus title?

its bogus that they can not throe baskets

 

[weheartcheer]

Unfortunately, Sharkdad, I have already obtained intelligence on cheer safety from personal experience. So, that is not why I am asking. I am interested in knowing about the "governing" and "certification" organization reporting on injuries versus their own comparisons. I also have the stats compiled above. I was simply curious to know if AACCA put out an injury report, which it appears that they don't unless someone can show me otherwise.

As of April 29, 2011, the last time we spoke with Dr. Mueller, not one catastrophic injury has EVER been reported by VB or any of its affiliates.

 

[weheartcheer]

Dr. Fred Mueller of UNC Chapel Hill & the NCCSIR provides the only consistent long-term Cheer injury research, (email address below) dissemination occurs each year to the press outlets and is quoted frequently on TV and in the newspaper. NCCSIR’s collection, analysis and presentation of sport related injuries initiates many changes in sports … keeping more athletes healthy.

Dr. Mueller reports his figures annually which capture all Cheer (School based or not) injuries reported as associated to Cheer in ERs (Emergency Room) reports … and keep in mind the ER only. When he reports almost 30,000 injuries associated with Cheer in a single year then analyzes the numbers in comparison to numbers of participants to illustrate the dangers of Cheer participation. He ALWAYS recommends further research into Cheer related injuries and the creation of Certified Coaching Standards, rules to decrease injury rates and the severity of injuries and enforceable standards.

Just to clarify, Dr. Muellers study does NOT analyze ER visits. ER visits are analyzed by the National Electroic Injury Surveillance System with the US Consumer Product Safety Commision. That is not a sport or cheer specific study; it is a general survey of hospitals across the US.

Dr. Mueller's study is specific to ONLY catastrophic injuries that happen ONLY during participation in a school/college sponsored sport. An injury is only counted if it is a fatality, there is permanent severe functional disability, or severe but no permanent functional disability (such as a fractured cervical vertebra but not paralyzed). This means that ONLY head, neck and spine injuries are included in his study and NO All Star injuries are included at all. Data is compiled with the assistance of coaches, athletic trainers, athletic directors, executive officers of state and national athletic organizations, online news reports, and professional associates of the researchers.

 

[CEAAlex]

"Football is dangerous, but we choose to participate in football." Um....what? What does that even mean, dude?

HILARIOUS!!! lol A*

 

[Rusty]

Thank you!

 

[coachrah]

Athletic Directors, School Presidents and School Principles know they can reduce the risk of injury by "ground bounding" squads, since Cheer athletes don't currently have a NGB (non-profit National Governing Board) this may possibly be the least expensive method for reducing athlete injury risk and lowering their budget by reducing insurance premiums.

You are aware that practice for Cheer Nationals are not covered by the Schools Insurance premiums, ... right? But then, that's a whole nother topic.

Practice for competition and competition is not covered by the NCAA for sideline cheerleading. Therefore, if a collegiate team is practicing to compete and entering competitions without purchasing a policy, the team is not covered. Period.

 

[PaigeColon]

They had baskets in their routine and performed with baskets and then the school found out, and their coach got fired. It sucks because TCU is very talented but they will never place high without baskets.
Also, I heard they won't be competing anymore,not sure how true this is.

Sent from my PC36100 using Tapatalk

 

[coachrah]

They had baskets in their routine and performed with baskets and then the school found out, and their coach got fired. It sucks because TCU is very talented but they will never place high without baskets.
Also, I heard they won't be competing anymore,not sure how true this is.

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Possible that their athletic director is aware of the NCAA insurance policy and knows his University would be liable without the purchase of an additional insurance policy. Since competing is not about the skill sets and merely a crowd leading "activity", it is very possible he agrees, and therefore, his interpretation is that a basket toss is not necessary to lead the crowd.