All-Star The 'right' Level

[stuntjumptumble]

We have 83 kids and 7 teams. We have 4 crossovers bc we needed to fill out our Sr level 1. No stacking here. All our teams are small with 10-15 kids each. Tinys has 7.
ETA: I could have had larger teams but then they would have been filled with kids on incorrect levels.

Well that makes sense. I meant more for when there are 7 or so larger teams (say, 20-25 kids per team) with a small number of kids attending the gym. A few crossovers here and there is fine, it just bothers me when half to 3/4s of the team is crossovers, you know?

 

[CheerFITnow]

Team levels seem to always be such a sore subject for teams, coaches, CP's and parents. Here are my two cents, for what it's worth.

1 - Any team should compete at the highest level that, for lack of better way of putting it, the weakest person on the team can compete at. That means if you can only do a full team BHS then go L2, regardless if you have a handful of tucks or layouts, what have you. <- this is more common for smaller gyms that have less kids to field teams

2 - Saying you have a Worlds level team that's never won a major competition (Cheersport,NCA or UCA Nationals) but gets an at-large bid to worlds - doesn't mean a whole lot other then you want to say you have a Worlds team when IMO you really don't

3 - I will say I like how new gym is doing it - all teams are set at largest common denominator, if you're lacking you either had to get the skill by the end of the summer or move down. If you progressed all summer you could challenge and move up. All season long the teams work to progress their skills and if as a team they've all progressed they can compete at the higher level choose to do so at the last competition of the season.

Preach it!! Compete at a level you will be competitive at especially at the NATIONAL level (handset, UCA, NCA ect).

 

[Mo-Lissa]

Then that gym should have the integrity to look out for those kids before themselves and help them get to the place where that can truly excel and be successful until they've built enough of a program under them to legitimately take their own team. And some small gyms may not ever get to that place but I've seen coaches here on this board that are content with having that smaller program that specifically feeds their occasional true level 5 to a bigger name gym in the area that can continue to push them.

Maybe it's the educator in me and not the business man...but this SHOULD be about doing what's right for kids and taking a team that barely squeaked into worlds on a leftover at large with only 6 true level athletes to get emotionally smacked down by the spectacle of the caliber of teams that will actually be there doesn't strike me as something that is going to be a self-esteem boosting "worlds experience."

I completely understand what you are saying - why should anyone else care if your gym takes it's Level 5 team to Worlds with an at-large bid - because you are happy she is there and able to perform her Level 5 skills that she has worked so hard to master. Kudos to your cp, and I mean that sincerely.
My cp is 12 and on a jr 3. We hope that at some point in her cheer life she will be on a level 5 that gets a bid to Worlds. However, having previously been at a gym that that sent a janky Level 5 team with an at-large default bid to Worlds (default because the 4-5 teams in front of them all had their bids already and there was no one else to give it to at that comp) imho it's a lot of money for a whole lot of ugly. It's definitely a dream to send a team to Worlds for many gyms, but when that janky level 5 stepped on the mat and looked like a barely janky level 4 that day, it was not pretty.
I don't think there is anything wrong with sending a true level 5 team to Worlds that may not get out of prelims as long as they are a true level 5. But 6 kids cannot turn a level 3 or level 4 team into a true level 5 no matter how much heart they have or how much fun their good, clean routine is to watch. I know I would not want my cp to spend countless hours and a lot of money to be competing on a team that just cannot be competitive just for the sake of saying she is on a level 5 team. I just asked my cp and she said she would rather be on a powerhouse Level 4 that dominated everywhere than a janky Level 5 even if it meant never competing at Worlds because that janky Level 5 should never go to Worlds. If her gym has a true Level 5, though, that is of course what she would want.

I so totally understand both of your comments!!! I respect both, actually both really good!! I feel the true like the Level 5 kids in our program know in no way, shape or form, have the misconception of what the caliber of the team are going to be like at Worlds. I do not know what the answer is. I know my daughter pours her heart on the mat, and lives, and breathes for her gym!! She has been with one of her coaches her entire life, everything she has is from this program. I would love nothing more than to see them go to Worlds.

But for sake of another example, what about International Teams, lets be realistic, only 3 make it to Finals, so...... Should we only let the big dogs even try for a bid as not to waste our time, their money, or have to look at janky routines?? Worlds itself has created this monster. I have said this a million times.

I am in quite a different scenario than most... the closest "true" Level 5 team is 2 hours away, and not even sure with the NC rivalries and craziness, if my daughter would be welcome in some of the programs. I could move to another state and tear my family apart for allstars cheerleading. She has lists of her dream teams!!

Our saving grace, that she will be eligible to super senior as a college freshman, till then we will show our pride with the gym that made her, and pray for one of those "At Large Bids"

 

[cupieqt]

Well that makes sense. I meant more for when there are 7 or so larger teams (say, 20-25 kids per team) with a small number of kids attending the gym. A few crossovers here and there is fine, it just bothers me when half to 3/4s of the team is crossovers, you know?

I know exactly what you mean and I agree!

 

[dawgshow]

This subject pulls my heart strings.... so lets flip the coin.
What do you do with the 6 kids at your gym TRUE level 5 that work their buts off, put many years into allstars, sorry you can't do your arabian thru double or standing full, tick tics, ect... because "Suzi" only has a tuck so we will be level 3 this year. How many years can a small gym of 70 some allstars stay open not producing a team to go to the Almighty Worlds??? What do you really care if we have a level 5 team that has a lot of heart, a good clean routine, that is enjoyable to watch, showcase our level 5 kids and give the babies in our program heroes in their mind to look up to??? Go get a drink, snack or go to the bathroom when we take the floor. I pray for that
at-large bid, and the chance my daughter takes that Worlds stage. Why does she deserve it less than anyone else?

I just want to address the part in red. I don't know if it's where I live or it's really the reality, but our gym has been in business for 13 years (I think) and has no level 5 team, much less a World's caliber team. It's no longer a small gym, but is definitely successful. Do we lose kids to another gym to be on a level 5? Yes. Has it effected the business? Not really. The perception that you MUST field a world's team to be successful is just false. Of course, I suppose that it depends on your definition of successful.

As for why do I care if a non-qualified team goes to World's? My only concern is the feelings of those kids on the team. If a team goes and knows that they are going to come in the last 10% of the teams, then so be it. What I hate is the kids who actually think that they have any chance of coming in the top 50% and are crushed year after year when they come in so close to last.

 

[notimeforthat]

I think partially to blame is that small gym owners are very passionate about what it is that they do or they wouldn't do it... I don't know of any small gyms that make owners into millionaires but I know of several that have owners that live, breathe and sleep all star cheer. I'm sure that these owners perceive success as having a worlds team. Just like most passionate cheerleaders dream of going to worlds I'm sure its the same for many of them.
As long as they aren't looking at their odds through rose colored glasses and communicate the same to their teams It is their decision to go or not.

 

[Mo-Lissa]

I just want to address the part in red. I don't know if it's where I live or it's really the reality, but our gym has been in business for 13 years (I think) and has no level 5 team, much less a World's caliber team. It's no longer a small gym, but is definitely successful. Do we lose kids to another gym to be on a level 5? Yes. Has it effected the business? Not really. The perception that you MUST field a world's team to be successful is just false. Of course, I suppose that it depends on your definition of successful.

As for why do I care if a non-qualified team goes to World's? My only concern is the feelings of those kids on the team. If a team goes and knows that they are going to come in the last 10% of the teams, then so be it. What I hate is the kids who actually think that they have any chance of coming in the top 50% and are crushed year after year when they come in so close to last.

I am not really sure where I wanna go with this, but it the best I can describe..... we started Allstars in the 1990's, I am old LOL!! We started when they had Youth, Junior, Senior All Girl, Senior Coed Small and Large, based solely on # of boys. No Levels at all, so Sally's youth team went against Barlett (which was awesome back in the day). Nobody said The Sallys could not come due to their skill level, they were just glad to be at good ole UCA Nationals trying to get that jacket. Sooooo, I do not think a small gym has to have a worlds team to be successful, but the industry has made Worlds being so important that I feel, many leave smaller to gyms to chase a dream, when they could have had so many more successful years at the small gym. Now in my original post I stated 6 "true" level 5 athletes, as this in my eyes is doubles, full, thru double, whip double, standing full ect. We have several more kids throwing fulls, all have standing tucks ect.... but theoretically those are now open 5 skills correct. I guess I am just glad that my daughters loyalty to her gym and her gym family does my heart good. Sorry if I make no sense!

 

[Mo-Lissa]

I just want to address the part in red. I don't know if it's where I live or it's really the reality, but our gym has been in business for 13 years (I think) and has no level 5 team, much less a World's caliber team. It's no longer a small gym, but is definitely successful. Do we lose kids to another gym to be on a level 5? Yes. Has it effected the business? Not really. The perception that you MUST field a world's team to be successful is just false. Of course, I suppose that it depends on your definition of successful.

As for why do I care if a non-qualified team goes to World's? My only concern is the feelings of those kids on the team. If a team goes and knows that they are going to come in the last 10% of the teams, then so be it. What I hate is the kids who actually think that they have any chance of coming in the top 50% and are crushed year after year when they come in so close to last.

One more thought....If you did not lose kids to be on Level 5 teams, could you have fielded a level 5 team? And do you think that would have made your gym more successful or not? No real answer, just wanted our opinion...

 

[dawgshow]

One more thought....If you did not lose kids to be on Level 5 teams, could you have fielded a level 5 team? And do you think that would have made your gym more successful or not? No real answer, just wanted our opinion...

Probably not, because of the way all star and school cheer operate here. Many of the schools mandate that if you cheer school cheer you cannot cheer competitive cheer. Since most of the girls that are old enough for the level 5 skills are HS age, All star loses them because they either want that experience or they want to cheer college and think they need the sideline experience. Honestly, there just isn't enough eligible talent for multiple World's teams here. In a few years, maybe, as all star is becoming more popular but not now. We will most likely have a restricted 5 team next year (almost had enough for one this year) but it will be awhile for the World's caliber team to come together.

 

[youbetterwork]

I had this exact issue recently with my youth team. We only have one youth team, so we accept everyone who wants to join at tryouts. Some kids have tumbling and some kids have non, so it's hard trying to decide a level. We decided the lower level after a while. Now they can (hopefully) be successful in that level and we can really focus on the basics so they're ready for the higher level next season. I'm all about pushing for a higher level and I try to bring out every kids potential, but if they don't do the basics properly they will only get injuries and bad-looking skills...

 

[DropAndRun]

My CP is at a very small gym. We have 3 teams.. A mini 1 (with 4 girls) a jr 2 and a sr 2/3. I won't lie and say it never occurred to me that it would be easier to be somewhere else, but I do believe in our growing team (2nd year for program. 1st for minis) am loyal to our coach, who is the kind of 20something I hope I was and hope my daughter grows up to be. Since my daughter is a young mini, I can only hope the program grows with her. Will it grow into a program that develops a worlds team? Well.. I'm not sure. However, if I thought I could say for sure that my 7yo would grow into a worlds level athlete, I might be a crazy cheer mom. Who knows what she will be doing at 12. I hope it's cheer.. But that's sooo far away!

 

[WCMAN]

I was SHOCKED at how many layouts I saw at Worlds. I saw one girl throw standing BHS BHS tuck and eat it. I understand these teams want to go to worlds, and maybe join divisions that are smaller so they can say they made finals but come on. It is one thing to have a bad day, and another to trick parents and kids into thinking they belong at worlds with a tuck. This might be my biggest pet peeve.

Agree with you 100 percent....it drives me crazy also.

 

[WCMAN]

I do see some gyms that force having a level 5 team just to say they have one. Why would you have say a restricted 5 and a 4 if the same kids are on both teams...

 

[xpressjag]

Honestly all star cheer is so driven by tumbling that if the majority of your team doesn't have the correct level skills then you won't place well at many competitions. 5 years ago you could enter a level and have great choreography/stunts and place well. Now you need the entire package, especially tumbling.

 

[garretttt]

Let me put it in my perspective.

For the past 6 years of my cheerleading career, I've been on levels 3 and 4. The past 2 years i was on a pretty decent coed 3 team but this past we never won....once. This year we decided to have a level 5 team and i got placed on it. Seriously after the 1st 3 practices i quit because we had 15 people and 7 fulls....no doubles AND WE WERE NOT RESTRICTED EITHER.