All-Star Vent On Nca's Sandbagging Policy

[SharkDad]

This has been a long-standing concept that would increase safety as well

 

[Drkilluzionz]

Not to defend sandbagging, by any means,... but could it be possible that some overly ambitious coach didn't properly evaluate the skill levels of their kids, and had them competing at a level higher than they really should have been at? And one day after getting their 'spankies' handed to them, they decided it would be best to try to max out the scoresheet at their true skill levels?

Or maybe,.. after paying a whole lotta money for a 'Big Name' choreographer to create a phenomenal routine, which they later ended up watering down,... cuz they really couldn't have the majority of their team do the skills they told 'BN' choreographer they could do,...

or maybe,... just maybe,... the gym/owner/coach pushed the kids to compete at a higher level because a handful of parents threatened to take their kids outta the program if they didn't perform 'X' skill that they just got over the summer??? We've all seen teams compete at level 3 with only a handful of tucks that don't face-plant!!
JMO

This is happening b/c this gym wants bragging rights of bringing home Dallas titles to their program in hopes of boosting numbers and program legitimacy...which as backwards as it sounds just might happen in South Fl...

 

[King]

This is happening b/c this gym wants bragging rights of bringing home Dallas titles to their program in hopes of boosting numbers and program legitimacy...which as backwards as it sounds just might happen in South Fl...

I refer to BlueCat 's post about winning: #484

(click the link)

 

[MissBee]

I think every level individually has about 3 types of kids.

1. Kids who are new to the level and are just starting to attempt level X sills or maybe do not have level X skills but are trying to get them.

2. Kids who can execute level X skills with a decent level of proficiency.

3. Kids who are overall above level X skills so that performing level X skills is not physically hard for them.

Most gyms create teams with types 1 and 2. Few gyms start the year with type 3 kids on a team because those kids would rather be type 1 or 2 on a higher level team. As the season progresses it may become clear to that team/gym/coach that these type 1 or 2 kids in Level X are not winning, so they decide to go Level Y with type 3 kids.

What I do see happening (which will eventually get rid of sand bagging mattering) is that to compete Level X gyms will start ONLY putting type 3 (and maybe type 2.. maybe) kinds on a team.

What do I mean by that? In 5 to 10 years I don't think it will be uncommon for Level 3 teams to have kids on the team with standing tucks, double downs, and maybe even a few fulls. The drive to be competitive will force everyone to be masters of a level before they even compete it.

This is a bit more of a gymnastic style approach than traditional cheerleading. Cheerleading will eventually become bottom heavy and pyramid ish than what we have now (more of a bell curve). Your kid may just get their tuck but won't even be allowed to go on a level 3 team until they have their tuck, standing 3, punch front, all the body positions, and can full down and twist basket. Until then they are level 2.

This is pretty much how gymnastics works. You have to score a certain minimum AA score during the season at Level 5 in order to move up to Level 6 and so on.

 

[King]

This is pretty much how gymnastics works. You have to score a certain minimum AA score during the season at Level 5 in order to move up to Level 6 and so on.

It is where we are all going. If all kids are type 3 on a team then it doesn't matter if a level 4 or 5 team came down to level 3.

It is viewed as bad policy if a level 5 team drops to level 3 because it is believed that level 5 teams can execute the same level 3 skills BETTER than all the other level 3 teams. But what if all level 3 teams can execute the skills VERY well?

 

[John Butler]

A particular quote comes to mind... "It's not whether you win or lose, but how you play the game". I know a lot of people think that quote is ridiculous or written by someone who lost. I've always felt it's an important quote, because it gets to the very heart of what I try to teach my children about competing.

Corey, not that I need to say it... but play your game. If the others choose to play in a method that is not forthright, whether they win or lose, others will know how they chose to play. From a parent's perspective, I for one am very happy and proud of how we play the game!

 

[kristenthegreat]

That's what I figured. I know they had another team go, and assumed crossovers dictated the level. I believe the same reason was responsible for a gym closer to us.

I had to do some sleuthing to guess at who you were talking about lol

 

[cupieqt]

I think every level individually has about 3 types of kids.

1. Kids who are new to the level and are just starting to attempt level X sills or maybe do not have level X skills but are trying to get them.

2. Kids who can execute level X skills with a decent level of proficiency.

3. Kids who are overall above level X skills so that performing level X skills is not physically hard for them.

Most gyms create teams with types 1 and 2. Few gyms start the year with type 3 kids on a team because those kids would rather be type 1 or 2 on a higher level team. As the season progresses it may become clear to that team/gym/coach that these type 1 or 2 kids in Level X are not winning, so they decide to go Level Y with type 3 kids.

What I do see happening (which will eventually get rid of sand bagging mattering) is that to compete Level X gyms will start ONLY putting type 3 (and maybe type 2.. maybe) kinds on a team.

What do I mean by that? In 5 to 10 years I don't think it will be uncommon for Level 3 teams to have kids on the team with standing tucks, double downs, and maybe even a few fulls. The drive to be competitive will force everyone to be masters of a level before they even compete it.

This is a bit more of a gymnastic style approach than traditional cheerleading. Cheerleading will eventually become bottom heavy and pyramid ish than what we have now (more of a bell curve). Your kid may just get their tuck but won't even be allowed to go on a level 3 team until they have their tuck, standing 3, punch front, all the body positions, and can full down and twist basket. Until then they are level 2.

That's how we have been designing our teams too. Since we are so small we do allow 1 or 2 type 2's on a team but they have to be very proficient at everything else (jumps, dance, stunting).

 

[CGAcheer]

I think every level individually has about 3 types of kids.

1. Kids who are new to the level and are just starting to attempt level X sills or maybe do not have level X skills but are trying to get them.

2. Kids who can execute level X skills with a decent level of proficiency.

3. Kids who are overall above level X skills so that performing level X skills is not physically hard for them.

Most gyms create teams with types 1 and 2. Few gyms start the year with type 3 kids on a team because those kids would rather be type 1 or 2 on a higher level team. As the season progresses it may become clear to that team/gym/coach that these type 1 or 2 kids in Level X are not winning, so they decide to go Level Y with type 3 kids.

What I do see happening (which will eventually get rid of sand bagging mattering) is that to compete Level X gyms will start ONLY putting type 3 (and maybe type 2.. maybe) kinds on a team.

What do I mean by that? In 5 to 10 years I don't think it will be uncommon for Level 3 teams to have kids on the team with standing tucks, double downs, and maybe even a few fulls. The drive to be competitive will force everyone to be masters of a level before they even compete it.

This is a bit more of a gymnastic style approach than traditional cheerleading. Cheerleading will eventually become bottom heavy and pyramid ish than what we have now (more of a bell curve). Your kid may just get their tuck but won't even be allowed to go on a level 3 team until they have their tuck, standing 3, punch front, all the body positions, and can full down and twist basket. Until then they are level 2.

Some of our level 1's and the occasional too old to go somewhere else kids are for the most part the only type 1's on our teams.

Our large Sr 3 (our highest Level team) now has about 50% standing tucks about 30% layouts and 10% fulls, but we don't have a higher level team to put them on, so we are probably are at about 60% 3's, 30 % 2's and 10% 1's. Next year we'll probably be more around 25%, 60% and 15% respectively at Level 4, Which will probably ripple down the levels.

 

[5-6-7-8]

...

What I do see happening (which will eventually get rid of sand bagging mattering) is that to compete Level X gyms will start ONLY putting type 3 (and maybe type 2.. maybe) kinds on a team.

...

As a parent I would love to see a majority of type 3's and a few 1's or 2's if needed.

The culture I see is that as soon as Susie has a basic level x skill, Susie's parents expect her to be on a level x team. I would love to see the shift in culture to the "type 3" mentality.

I mean it seems to make so much sense to me. Why would I want my CP competing on a weak team? It doesn't matter to me that for 2:30 she can't throw tumbling she may have. And when her jump, dance, stunting, tumbling skills, AND maturity are ready, then she can move up.

 

[Cheer_Explosion_Coach]

I seriously doubt that 99.5% of cheer parents even know what the true role of the USASF is, how it impacts their child, or that they can help make a positive difference in the sport.

And no disrespect, but it's not the parents' place to have a voting role in the USASFs rule making process. JMO

Parents power and strength cones from the fact that they are the consumer and need to spend their $$ wisely. A gym like this doesn't follow the rules no matter who writes them. Parents that are concerned about our sport and athletes could shut this gym's business down.


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[Cheer_Explosion_Coach]

And no disrespect, but it's not the parents' place to have a voting role in the USASFs rule making process. JMO

Parents power and strength cones from the fact that they are the consumer and need to spend their $$ wisely. A gym like this doesn't follow the rules no matter who writes them. Parents that are concerned about our sport and athletes could shut this gym's business down.


Also, I think that the PAC is a great addition to the USASF. Please don't think that I believe parents shouldn't get involved. I have focus group discussions with my team parents all the time. They are the customer and we should want them to be happy and safe. But I don't think every Susie's mom should get involved in the nuts and bolts of the USASF.


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[SharkDad]

You make very good points. Most parents don't need to get involved in how the USASF runs.

What ALL parents should do is educate themselves on what is safe and not safe for their child, either mentally or physically, in this sport.

If a gym is bad then they can impact directly by confronting the coach/owner or not spending money there and giving them a bad review.

If the system is bad and causing unsafe conditions then I think they have every right to contact the governing body and voice their opinion.

 

[shep]

My favorite example of this was actually at JamLive in Indy two years ago (maybe) I took my youth 2's and we competed against 17 (if I remember correctly, it was the biggest level 2 competition I've ever seen) other squads. We were the 2nd or 3rd squad up and I noticed one of our competitors in warmups doing a lot of illegal stunts and standing tumbling connections. I didn't say anything, figuring the judges would notice (and they did).

To give you a little info, this was the losingest bunch of kids I've ever seen, I did the best with what I had, in most gyms with a respectable sized program 80% of the kids on the squad would have been in a rec program. Anyway, I watched this team preform and instantly saw the event director make a beeline for their coach, I knew he was discussing the monumental failure that was their routine. I saw their score flash(I think it was in the 5's) and I instantly knew that we would score higher than that, meaning that for the first time all year, my kids would be in 1st place, even if it were only for 5 minutes they would sit in the leaders lounge.

And that was my most memorable coaching moment, seeing those kids faces after so much struggle beat not only another squad, but a squad that they thought (and actually) was better than they were. That was cool.

Sure enough I went to that gym's website and they had their rosters listed, they didn't have a Youth 2. So in the end, insanely idiotic coaching and their poor attempt to sandbag made for one of the best days of my coaching career, mind you I won several too, but finishing 11th with that group of youth 2's was something I wont forget for years to come.

 

[FLcoach]

I think every level individually has about 3 types of kids.

1. Kids who are new to the level and are just starting to attempt level X sills or maybe do not have level X skills but are trying to get them.

2. Kids who can execute level X skills with a decent level of proficiency.

3. Kids who are overall above level X skills so that performing level X skills is not physically hard for them.

Most gyms create teams with types 1 and 2. Few gyms start the year with type 3 kids on a team because those kids would rather be type 1 or 2 on a higher level team. As the season progresses it may become clear to that team/gym/coach that these type 1 or 2 kids in Level X are not winning, so they decide to go Level Y with type 3 kids.

What I do see happening (which will eventually get rid of sand bagging mattering) is that to compete Level X gyms will start ONLY putting type 3 (and maybe type 2.. maybe) kinds on a team.

What do I mean by that? In 5 to 10 years I don't think it will be uncommon for Level 3 teams to have kids on the team with standing tucks, double downs, and maybe even a few fulls. The drive to be competitive will force everyone to be masters of a level before they even compete it.

This is a bit more of a gymnastic style approach than traditional cheerleading. Cheerleading will eventually become bottom heavy and pyramid ish than what we have now (more of a bell curve). Your kid may just get their tuck but won't even be allowed to go on a level 3 team until they have their tuck, standing 3, punch front, all the body positions, and can full down and twist basket. Until then they are level 2.

I agree this is the way the industry is going right now, but is this the way the industry SHOULD be going?
Is this the direction we want to take with the all star cheer industry?

If we set score sheets up to score and truly be scored by majority- it would give a lot more room for creative skills sets, majority specialty stunts and passes... We're killing our kids and our gyms by requiring every single kid to have a layout to be on level 4. What about the talented bases and backspot who can put up a level 5 stunt but can't throw a full?

Just food for thought- but if we truly base scoresheets off majority (instead of squad skills) wouldn't we be leaving room for creativity and GROWTH IN THE INDUSTRY instead of routines that are just sections of squad skills pieced together?