All-Star Vent On Nca's Sandbagging Policy

[ptcheerboi]

ha i have heard of gyms that have done that foor years. Im glad that NCA/varsity finally put a stop to it. GOOD FOR THEM, but SUCKS for those that were being shady

 

[FLcoach]

The NCA Sandbag policy is a GREAT start to help prevent this problem- however we all know that there are numerous competitions the month of February prior to NCA Nationals. A team can enter a competition in their "dropped" level the week before NCA and therefore compete in the lower level prior to NCA. This, making the rule work in their favor.

We need a level declaration system to stop sandbagging.

At the first event your gym goes to- the level they register teams in is that teams level for the season. They become an active team on the date of the first competition. (This prevents date issues for registration for gyms who compete early/ late)

That is your team's level for the season- and it is recorded by the event producer and by the USASF.

In order to switch your level, you must fill out a level declaration form. USASF must approve this form for vaild reasons... It would be easier and encourage to move UP a level- however it would be a much more tedious process to move down a level.

Realistically- when you register your team for their first competition, you should know what level your team should be in for the season. If you don't, you shouldn't be coaching.

It's not perfect and it wouldn't be an easy process to implement but it definitely would help prevent teams who purposely drop (as a whole team) to a lower level to win. It wouldn't help a gym adding kids onto lower level teams before nationals- but that's a very difficult thing to regulate.

And Of course this will only work if 1) Every event is a registered member of the USASF so they can pass on their records to the USASF and 2) We have enough manpower and staff to record the registrations and levels

 

[King]

I agree this is the way the industry is going right now, but is this the way the industry SHOULD be going?
Is this the direction we want to take with the all star cheer industry?

If we set score sheets up to score and truly be scored by majority- it would give a lot more room for creative skills sets, majority specialty stunts and passes... We're killing our kids and our gyms by requiring every single kid to have a layout to be on level 4. What about the talented bases and backspot who can put up a level 5 stunt but can't throw a full?

Just food for thought- but if we truly base scoresheets off majority (instead of squad skills) wouldn't we be leaving room for creativity and GROWTH IN THE INDUSTRY instead of routines that are just sections of squad skills pieced together?

I'm afraid I don't understand your argument exactly. How could a scoresheet reward a team that has less skills than another team? You can't be a specialist anymore, you have to be all around great at each level. And in 5 years it will be even more so. Being just a good stunter doesn't cut it anymore.

 

[Drkilluzionz]

It's not perfect and it wouldn't be an easy process to implement but it definitely would help prevent teams who purposely drop (as a whole team) to a lower level to win. It wouldn't help a gym adding kids onto lower level teams before nationals- but that's a very difficult thing to regulate.

And Of course this will only work if 1) Every event is a registered member of the USASF so they can pass on their records to the USASF and 2) We have enough manpower and staff to record the registrations and levels

We were speaking about this at our coaches meeting last night...we dont mind paying for something as long as its going towards something legit. If the USASF is going to begin credentialing all levels of athletes than it needs to be more than just a way to collect funds for the company...some sort of tracking system needs to be developed and implemented to start putting an end to situations like these.

 

[King]

The NCA Sandbag policy is a GREAT start to help prevent this problem- however we all know that there are numerous competitions the month of February prior to NCA Nationals. A team can enter a competition in their "dropped" level the week before NCA and therefore compete in the lower level prior to NCA. This, making the rule work in their favor.

We need a level declaration system to stop sandbagging.

At the first event your gym goes to- the level they register teams in is that teams level for the season. They become an active team on the date of the first competition. (This prevents date issues for registration for gyms who compete early/ late)

That is your team's level for the season- and it is recorded by the event producer and by the USASF.

In order to switch your level, you must fill out a level declaration form. USASF must approve this form for vaild reasons... It would be easier and encourage to move UP a level- however it would be a much more tedious process to move down a level.

Realistically- when you register your team for their first competition, you should know what level your team should be in for the season. If you don't, you shouldn't be coaching.

It's not perfect and it wouldn't be an easy process to implement but it definitely would help prevent teams who purposely drop (as a whole team) to a lower level to win. It wouldn't help a gym adding kids onto lower level teams before nationals- but that's a very difficult thing to regulate.

And Of course this will only work if 1) Every event is a registered member of the USASF so they can pass on their records to the USASF and 2) We have enough manpower and staff to record the registrations and levels

If you start making people declare a level for an entire season you will fight what you asked for in your first post... leaving room for growth. Regulating teams to stay a level will force everyone to pick their teams even stricter speeding up the process of squad perfect skills for a season.

I still say if someone picked a team with all type 3 kids at the beginning of the season why would it matter if that team from level 5 or level 4 dropped down to compete in your level?

 

[CGAcheer]

If you start making people declare a level for an entire season you will fight what you asked for in your first post... leaving room for growth. Regulating teams to stay a level will force everyone to pick their teams even stricter speeding up the process of squad perfect skills for a season.

I still say if someone picked a team with all type 3 kids at the beginning of the season why would it matter if that team from level 5 or level 4 dropped down to compete in your level?

This is helping grow the older lower levels, 2 years ago our jr 1 had hardly any competition all season. We have a jr 1 again and it seems like there are more teams in the division now

 

[FLcoach]

If you start making people declare a level for an entire season you will fight what you asked for in your first post... leaving room for growth. Regulating teams to stay a level will force everyone to pick their teams even stricter speeding up the process of squad perfect skills for a season.

I still say if someone picked a team with all type 3 kids at the beginning of the season why would it matter if that team from level 5 or level 4 dropped down to compete in your level?

My point is to stop sandbagging more for ethical reasons/ gym vs. gym reasons... not to not let kids progress.

And the level is declared by what you register as at your first competition. It's not something to stress about- if you as a coach can't figure out what level your team should be in by your first competition than you shouldn't be coaching... right?

For example, if you have a level 3 or 4 team- and they compete that level in December and they wish to move up at the end of the season- that's great! Easy change, fill out the form and boom- it's done. Just because your team is level 3- there is nothing stopping you from working on higher skills. If your kids are in the gym taking privates and classes, of course they should progress. We have all had a level 3 team that has girls with layouts on it. So I'm not sure how I'm not leaving room for growth. The individuals can still get new skills and the team as a whole can easily move up.

No one has to declare a level at tryouts or even summer time. Your level is declared as whatever level you register as at your first competition. Simple process that can be integrated into Varsity Allstar when you go to register for competitions.

My idea was to help prevent teams who have competed in level 5 from dropping to level 4 for Nationals season.

For example- we have a local gym that advertises level 5. They pull in talented kids from small local gyms. They compete level 5 in December and January and then as soon as February rolls around, they drop down at a local competition right before NCA Nationals.

And guess what- it's total legal because the NCA policy is that they only have to compete once in that division.
So they drop to level 4 for a competition the week before NCA and then level 4 for NCA.

After NCA- they go right back to level 5 and start advertising it again.

This is what I'm going after. I'm not trying to prevent progression or add any long difficult level declaration process on top of what all of us, as gym owners and as coaches, already have to deal with.

However- if we had to make these teams jump through another extra loop hole to drop levels- MAYBE we could start preventing it even more.

As I said in my post above- NCA has got it started and this policy will help a lot- but I believe there is still more we can do to prevent it!! It's just an idea and I agree with you that it isn't perfect .... but the more people that have ideas and start bringing ideas to the table- the better our industry will be. Because when someone gets the idea right and we can finally hit the nail on the head- we can start legitimizing everything and keep moving our industry forward and helping it grow!

P.S. Kingston, I want to meet you! I'll try to find you at a competition soon and introduce myself!

 

[newcheerdad]

If you start making people declare a level for an entire season you will fight what you asked for in your first post... leaving room for growth. Regulating teams to stay a level will force everyone to pick their teams even stricter speeding up the process of squad perfect skills for a season.

I still say if someone picked a team with all type 3 kids at the beginning of the season why would it matter if that team from level 5 or level 4 dropped down to compete in your level?

I've been pushing this idea for a while now with regards to credentialing:

Basically, you declare your credentialed level at the start of the season. You get one opportunity during the season to change your level, but only one, and you can only go up or down one level. (this would reward progression and/or allow for athletes to be moved to a more reasonable level if need be, but would discourage an "en masse" move of higher-level athletes down to a lower level)

I would then institute a "majority rule" when it comes to teams competing in USASF-sanctioned events. Simply put, the level your team is competing at must contain a majority of athletes that are credentialed at that level. So if you have a 20-person small senior 3 team, at least 11 of those athletes must currently be credentialed at level 3. That would give programs flexibility to mix and match athletes and crossover as needed, but would significantly limit sandbagging.

 

[AndyT_T]

Am I the only one not even remotely bothered by this?

 

[BlueCat]

Am I the only one not even remotely bothered by this?

I take it you have never coached a L2 team that was beaten by a team with multiple kids throwing fulls or doubles in other routines that day.

 

[gymcatmomx2]

I completely understand the frustration of teams that sandbag for nationals. We competed against a level 3 team last weekend that was throwing standing backs in warm-ups and, I swear, I saw one of them do a layout in the routine. Needless to say they came in first place. However, there are situations where a gym has to move a team down a level, especially a small gym, due to NCA's no crossover rule. We have crossovers between our level 2 team and our level 3 team. In order for both teams to go to NCA, it was decided to drop our level 3 team down to level 2. Now mind you, about half of the athletes on the level 3 team were type 1 and 2 and the other half were type 3, so in reality more of the athletes will be able to participate in the running tumbling section now that they will be competing as a level 2 team. This team has been struggling all season since most of them are new to all-star cheer. The majority of the athletes were thrilled with the idea, including my CP who is one of the best tumblers on the team. If it wasn't for the crossover rule, our level 3 team would still be competing level 3 and wouldn't be "sandbagging".

 

[AndyT_T]

I take it you have never coached a L2 team that was beaten by a team with multiple kids throwing fulls or doubles in other routines that day.

Where I come from there arent really that many people with fulls or doubles honestly..

 

[caligurlmom]

I have been in situations where the coaches didn't have faith in the kids to perform at a certain level. It leads to disinterested discontent cheerleaders. Generally kids don't work as hard when they perform below their level. Happy to be a part of California Allstars, have never seen that done with them. We have moved up a level though.

 

[BlueCat]

I still say if someone picked a team with all type 3 kids at the beginning of the season why would it matter if that team from level 5 or level 4 dropped down to compete in your level?

Kind of like - why would it matter if an international elite gymnast competed level 7 at a local meet? She would "only be doing L7 skills", so you shouldn't be able to tell any difference? Suzy Gymnast would be on an even playing field with Nastia Liukin?

 

[King]

Kind of like - why would it matter if an international elite gymnast competed level 7 at a local meet? She would "only be doing L7 skills", so you shouldn't be able to tell any difference? Suzy Gymnast would be on an even playing field with Nastia Liukin?

If Nastia is competing against another level 10 gymnast in the level 7 event does she have an advantage? Because the type 3 kids should be a few levels above level 7 anyways, shouldn't they?