All-Star When Should A Skill Be Warned Vs When A Full Deduction Should Be Given?

[Rudags]

I think that it should be like a world bid where a company has to "declare" their deduction/warning system. Example:1. Day 1 will be warnings and Day 2 will be deductions2. No warnings will be givenetc.In response to people playing the "coaches should know rules card" - I know the rules but Ive been called for legalities before whether it be a misinterpretation of how I read them - or a grey area I pushed too hard. Sometimes even a small thing such as grip or timing can play a role too.

 

[King]

What if rules violations, whether intentional or performance errors, were just worth the same as a stunt fall to the ground?

This does a few things:

1. Take away the argument of coaches it was just a performance error and deserves a warning. Dropping a stunt is a performance error as well and the deduction is no different than that.

2. EPs would be less likely to NOT give a safety warning (part of the real problem) because the point value is so high. Now it is no more than a stunt falling.

3. Give rise to the idea of disqualification. If you get more than 4 safety deductions in a routine you are disqualified.

4. Allow coaches to save face to their parents yet still make the necessary adjustments that the safety judges want.

 

[imrichhowboutu]

Performance errors on the jam brands sheet are actually worth less than a stunt fall. My major problem is that every coach feels they have the right to argue a legality to a performance error. It is usually very clear to me when something is choreographed illegally or it is an error. Coaches just get mad a silly legalities that are caught and then try to argue their way out of everything.

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[King]

Performance errors on the jam brands sheet are actually worth less than a stunt fall. My major problem is that every coach feels they have the right to argue a legality to a performance error. It is usually very clear to me when something is choreographed illegally or it is an error. Coaches just get mad a silly legalities that are caught and then try to argue their way out of everything.

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If you make every legality the same deduction, a stunt fall to the ground, you take away the ability to argue.

 

[imrichhowboutu]

If you make every legality the same deduction, a stunt fall to the ground, you take away the ability to argue.

Then I feel like you have coaches who still argue that since it was a mistake it shouldn't be worth the same and want a warning since its X time of season or its day 1 or because they are just Minis etc. I think its more of a behavior change needed in the coaches.

I think separating everything legally from the event producer is the way to go. All safety judges should be employed by usasf and no one on the payroll of the event producer should have the ability to change legalities.

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[King]

Then I feel like you have coaches who still argue that since it was a mistake it shouldn't be worth the same and want a warning since its X time of season or its day 1 or because they are just Minis etc. I think its more of a behavior change needed in the coaches.

I think separating everything legally from the event producer is the way to go. All safety judges should be employed by usasf and no one on the payroll of the event producer should have the ability to change legalities.

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I had this same discussion with @Andre yesterday. A mistake, whether it is a dropped stunt to the floor or performing something illegally (even if it was choreographed illegally), is a mistake. It is looked at no differently and therefore gets the same deduction. Only in safety rulings do we say mistakes get a warning. In execution mistakes get deductions.

A general thing I hear from the safety judges is that the coaches need to take more responsibility and the problem would fix itself. While I do agree coaches need to take better responsibility, the fact of the matter is they don't. And in this the question comes: would we rather be 'right' or would we rather be 'effective'. In all airplanes that you fly it is illegal to smoke, however, they always put an ashtray in the bathrooms in case someone does smoke. Why do they put ashtrays in there even thought smoking is illegal? Isn't that ashtray being placed in there the airlines giving consent to smoke? Well there was one time someone smoked in the bathroom and disposed incorrectly.

I am saying if you want to increase the chances an EP will enforce a safety deduction, decrease the amount of play a coach has in arguing a deduction, and increase the chances a coach will follow the rules you make all safety deductions the same (whether choreographed or performance error) and call them all performance errors and take away that argument.

I believe from the safety judge side the biggest tongue biting comes from having to just give a performance error to a level 2 team that egregiously choreographed and performed level 4 skills. To that I say you cannot look at the incident on its own and have to look at the data as a whole and how to improve the results.

 

[GreenStormLucy]

What i honestly don't understand is the "it's early in the season" argument. This is something that would never ever work over here.
You get the rules, and you are the coach. So you are responsible to stick to them, no matter if november or june.
Not trying to offend anyone, i just imagine me at the judges table and a coach telling me: It's early in the season, so i want a warning instead of a deduction :-O

 

[King]

What i honestly don't understand is the "it's early in the season" argument. This is something that would never ever work over here.
You get the rules, and you are the coach. So you are responsible to stick to them, no matter if november or june.
Not trying to offend anyone, i just imagine me at the judges table and a coach telling me: It's early in the season, so i want a warning instead of a deduction :-O

To be honest I don't think you can blame the coaches as long as the early competitions let it slide. Can we blame a child for being bratty if we let them get away with being bratty?

 

[DaniV]

To be honest I don't think you can blame the coaches as long as the early competitions let it slide. Can we blame a child for being bratty if we let them get away with being bratty?

Our first three comps last year told us that they would not be issuing deductions at all (for falls or legalities) because it was Dec/early Jan and they would be factored in when determining the execution score. It was nice to know what was illegal or could potentially be called later on without taking a penalty for it but I don't think that it was necessary at all.

 

[NJ Coach]

Performance errors on the jam brands sheet are actually worth less than a stunt fall. My major problem is that every coach feels they have the right to argue a legality to a performance error. It is usually very clear to me when something is choreographed illegally or it is an error. Coaches just get mad a silly legalities that are caught and then try to argue their way out of everything.

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I'll argue with you just for the heck of it now

 

[imrichhowboutu]

I'll argue with you just for the heck of it now

I know we could talk for ever on this just from our experiences together.


Also as a note. I dont like that as a safety judge I need to make the call that something is fully illegal, sort of illegal, or just warning. (I always warn for watchouts because something is close)

It'd be a lot easier if everything was the same deduction and warnings did not exist for illegal skills.

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[NJ Coach]

I will say, I have been deducted for "performance errors" that were very clearly not choreographed illegal, but happened anyway. A few years ago, in my level 2 pyramid, my bracer on one side dismounted 2 counts early. The rest of the pyramid dismounted correctly, but for 2 counts, part of my pyramid was illegal due to a mistake by a stunt group. I very clearly saw it, knew we would be hit for it, and there was nothing I could do about it. Took the deduction and moved on.

Last year, Rich called one of my teams TWICE for an illegal stunt (Once warned, once given the deduction). It was choreographed legally, however, in the excitement and adrenaline rush of a routine, 1 group would go above the legal height allowed. The first competition I was given a warning. We worked at practice to keep it from happening again. The next time, he hit me with it. I accepted it, the group accepted it, we worked harder and it never happened again (that skill is not in our routine this year).

I will argue when I disagree with the ruling. Some arguments I've won, some I've lost. That's the cost of doing business.

 

[MsElizabeth]

One of my teams had our prep group fall from pyramid along with one of the sides, although our other side still went up into the one leg extended position (it's level 2 so that is illegal). As soon as it happened I just knew we would be hit with a deduction. It was our fault as coaches because during practice we tell our athletes to go up no matter what, so they were just following instructions. The competition ended up just giving us a warning which was a relief but still I think that it's our jobs as coaches to be sure that our athletes are educated on the level they're competing.

 

[cheernerd5678]

I will say, I have been deducted for "performance errors" that were very clearly not choreographed illegal, but happened anyway. A few years ago, in my level 2 pyramid, my bracer on one side dismounted 2 counts early. The rest of the pyramid dismounted correctly, but for 2 counts, part of my pyramid was illegal due to a mistake by a stunt group. I very clearly saw it, knew we would be hit for it, and there was nothing I could do about it. Took the deduction and moved on.

This exact thing happened to our junior 2 last weekend. everything was so good and then that happened but they fixed it for day 2 and they won't let it happen again!